GIGANTIC Aviation Week story, Pentagon has been flying 2-stage orbital spaceplane throughout 1990s |
GIGANTIC Aviation Week story, Pentagon has been flying 2-stage orbital spaceplane throughout 1990s |
| Guest_BruceMoomaw_* |
Mar 6 2006, 02:24 AM
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Guests |
It may even have been manned:
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/chan...ws/030606p1.xml My God, what a story -- if it's even partially true. And, judging from this article, they are absolutely certain they have proof (along with proof that the thing, although it works, has recently been mothballed as not cost-effective). It's important to keep in mind, though, that this thing is NOT a workable prototype of the originally planned 2-stage winged Space Shuttle. The second stage -- the spaceplane that actually achieved orbit -- was relatively small and probably very inefficient as a cargo carrier; its advantage lay in allowing the US to get a military reconaissance (or weapons) satellite into orbit surreptitiously, with no advance warning of the launch going to other countries. Even at that, as I say, AW reports that the thing has been recently canned as not worth its (doubtless huge) black-budget expense. |
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| Guest_BruceMoomaw_* |
Mar 6 2006, 07:54 AM
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#2
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Jeffrey Bell, that eternal party-pooper, caught not only that one but a large set of what look like additional downright fatal errors in the whole story, to wit:
______________________________________ This story is riddled with absurdities: "A large 'mothership,' closely resembling the U.S. Air Force's historic XB-70 supersonic bomber, carries the orbital component conformally under its fuselage, accelerating to supersonic speeds at high altitude before dropping the spaceplane. The orbiter's engines fire and boost the vehicle into space." Starting out from Mach 3 and ~100,000' will not give enough of a boost that a small single-stage vehicle can reach orbit, or even a once-around trajectory. Whoever wrote this article has been reading too much t/space propaganda. "The manned orbiter's primary military advantage would be surprise overflight. There would be no forewarning of its presence, prior to the first orbit, allowing ground targets to be imaged before they could be hidden." Soviet missile-warning satellites would pick up the IR plume from the second stage, and since it would not be at a known space launch site they would interpret it as a covert nuclear missile launch. At a minimum you would get a major diplomatic crisis, at worst an accidental nuclear war! "The spaceplane is capable of carrying an advanced imaging suite that features 1-meter-aperture adaptive optics with an integral sodium-ion-sensing laser." This technology only works looking up, not down. The turbulent layer in the atmosphere is close to the ground and far away from orbit. You don't need it in space (besides the provocation of firing a laser at a Soviet installation from orbit). "The orbiter's belly appears to be contoured with channels, riblets or 'strakelets' that direct airflow to engine inlets and help dissipate aerodynamic heating. These shallow channels may direct air to a complex system of internal, advanced composite-material ducts, according to an engineer who says he helped build one version of the orbiter in the early 1990s." Composite materials are held together with epoxy glue and are highly flammable (see DC-X fires). You need Ti or steel for hypersonic intake ducts because the air is red-hot. "One version of the B-70 could have been used as a recoverable booster system to launch things into low-Earth orbit. . . . The DynaSoar program, the first effort by the [U.S.] to use a manned boost-glider to fly in near-orbital space and return, was considered in this context in November 1959. The B-70 was to carry the 10,000-lb. DynaSoar glider and a 40,000-lb. liquid rocket booster to 70,000 ft. and release them while traveling at Mach 3. With this lofty start, the booster could then push the glider into its final 300-mi. orbit." Again, the rocket equation tells you this won't work. You would need something bigger than Titan II for the booster and that is far too heavy for the B-70 to lift. North American was notorious in those days for proposing unworkable ideas, e.g. the orbital X-15. So to me, this article has as much credibility as last year's article on spaceships powered by zero-point energy. It seems that AvWeek's staff now lacks even basic technical knowledge. __________________________________________ Which presumably means that I do too, since I didn't catch any of this at the time. Put not your trust in Aviation Week, apparently (although I still wonder if this may have been a distorted version of a real story). |
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BruceMoomaw GIGANTIC Aviation Week story Mar 6 2006, 02:24 AM
tasp QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 5 2006, 08:24 PM... Mar 6 2006, 02:56 AM
mcaplinger Interesting, but I don't think AW&ST's... Mar 6 2006, 02:58 AM
BruceMoomaw Whatever happened to the "donuts on a rope... Mar 6 2006, 03:44 AM
deglr6328 Completely fascinating. Virtually all the details... Mar 6 2006, 06:30 AM
Bob Shaw Jeffrey Bell is really worried about the threat fr... Mar 6 2006, 11:44 AM
paxdan The set up described reminds me of the Tagboard pr... Mar 6 2006, 11:37 AM
tty Actually this is a rather typical Jeff Bell effort... Mar 6 2006, 07:56 PM
Myran Thats very insightful deglr6328, and without enoug... Mar 6 2006, 11:36 AM
edstrick ET Phone Area-51?
Actually, I've recently rea... Mar 6 2006, 12:00 PM
Bob Shaw Here are grabs from the AW&ST website:
http:/... Mar 6 2006, 01:25 PM
Ames Where does the undercarriage go?
doesn't ... Mar 6 2006, 02:16 PM
BruceMoomaw QUOTE (tty @ Mar 6 2006, 07:56 PM) Fortun... Mar 6 2006, 10:53 PM
BruceMoomaw Footnote: the Titan 2 second stage weighed 29,000 ... Mar 6 2006, 11:15 PM
tasp QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 6 2006, 05:15 PM... Mar 7 2006, 02:59 AM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (tasp @ Mar 7 2006, 02:59 AM) We ca... Mar 7 2006, 10:23 AM
Bob Shaw One *possible* vehicle which may form part of a so... Mar 7 2006, 04:36 PM
tty Well, I’ve been doing some more figuring and I mus... Mar 7 2006, 08:43 PM
dvandorn Just a little gedankenexperiment, here -- anyone c... Mar 7 2006, 09:48 PM
AlexBlackwell QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 7 2006, 09:48 PM) J... Mar 7 2006, 09:57 PM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 7 2006, 09:48 PM) J... Mar 7 2006, 10:08 PM
JTN QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 7 2006, 10:08 PM) C... Mar 7 2006, 10:44 PM
dvandorn Good point, Alex -- NRO probably would run such an... Mar 7 2006, 10:02 PM
dvandorn I'm not trying to imply conspiracies -- though... Mar 7 2006, 10:32 PM
dvandorn I have to admit, when I saw the Blackstar story, t... Mar 7 2006, 10:57 PM
BruceMoomaw According to the article, not even the nation... Mar 8 2006, 01:26 AM
GregM So let’s see here. To start with we have the Valky... Mar 8 2006, 04:02 AM
tty Also remember that there is a school of thought th... Mar 8 2006, 07:24 AM
paxdan Lots of info about the XB-70 What an aircraft... Mar 8 2006, 09:58 AM
Bob Shaw Jim Oberg on MSNBC.Com Space News summed up the Bo... Mar 8 2006, 11:09 AM
Steve G QUOTE (paxdan @ Mar 8 2006, 02:58 AM) Lot... Mar 17 2006, 02:56 AM
GregM QUOTE (Steve G @ Mar 17 2006, 02:56 AM) I... Mar 17 2006, 03:45 AM
dvandorn In re the Avro Arrow:
QUOTE (GregM @ Mar 16 ... Mar 18 2006, 03:19 PM
Steve G QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 18 2006, 08:19 AM) ... Mar 18 2006, 09:03 PM
BruceMoomaw It should be remembered that there is still -- to ... Mar 8 2006, 11:04 AM
paxdan QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 8 2006, 11:04 AM... Mar 8 2006, 11:11 AM
tty [quote name='BruceMoomaw' date='Mar 8 ... Mar 8 2006, 11:18 PM
gndonald QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 8 2006, 07:04 PM... Mar 17 2006, 04:14 PM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (gndonald @ Mar 17 2006, 04:14 PM) ... Mar 17 2006, 08:40 PM
ljk4-1 QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 17 2006, 03:40 PM) ... Mar 17 2006, 09:38 PM
edstrick I believe "AirCraftFilms", the companion... Mar 8 2006, 12:41 PM
BruceMoomaw QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 8 2006, 11:09 AM) J... Mar 8 2006, 01:27 PM
ljk4-1 I found this post from the FPSPACE list very inter... Mar 8 2006, 02:49 PM
AlexBlackwell QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 8 2006, 01:27 PM... Mar 8 2006, 04:48 PM
BruceMoomaw QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 8 2006, 04:48 ... Mar 9 2006, 12:39 AM
ljk4-1 It is a known fact that the CIA and USSR "sup... Mar 9 2006, 03:56 PM
AlexBlackwell QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 9 2006, 12:39 AM... Mar 9 2006, 04:55 PM
BruceMoomaw Okay, but a magazine which (according to you) is c... Mar 9 2006, 09:17 PM
AlexBlackwell QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 9 2006, 09:17 PM... Mar 9 2006, 09:32 PM
BruceMoomaw QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 9 2006, 09:32 ... Mar 10 2006, 05:24 AM
Bob Shaw From Wikipedia:
"One notable variant of the ... Mar 10 2006, 09:46 AM
ljk4-1 Blackstar: False Messiah From Groom Lake
http://w... Mar 10 2006, 12:16 PM
BruceMoomaw Bell, having now read the two other Aviation Week ... Mar 11 2006, 11:31 AM
Bob Shaw Is it a bad sign when Jeffrey Bell starts agreeing... Mar 11 2006, 11:37 AM
gpurcell QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 11 2006, 11:37 AM) ... Mar 12 2006, 02:23 AM
tty Here it is Jeff Bell who is off speculating in the... Mar 12 2006, 04:45 PM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (tty @ Mar 12 2006, 04:45 PM) If yo... Mar 12 2006, 09:17 PM
ljk4-1 Six blind men in a zoo: Aviation Week's mythic... Mar 13 2006, 05:13 PM
AlexBlackwell QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 13 2006, 05:13 P... Mar 13 2006, 05:25 PM
helvick QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 13 2006, 05:25... Mar 13 2006, 06:04 PM
gpurcell Ouch, that's GOTTA hurt. Mar 13 2006, 07:01 PM
tty Just one small point. That nuclear-powered soviet ... Mar 13 2006, 07:05 PM
ljk4-1 This Web page has excerpts from the 1958 AW&ST... Mar 13 2006, 07:29 PM
Myran Two US built nuclear jet engines at Idaho National... Mar 13 2006, 09:53 PM
BruceMoomaw Having finally read all of Dwayne Day's story,... Mar 18 2006, 03:51 AM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 18 2006, 03:51 A... Mar 18 2006, 01:36 PM
gpurcell QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 18 2006, 01:36 PM) ... Mar 18 2006, 01:58 PM
BruceMoomaw QUOTE (gpurcell @ Mar 18 2006, 01:58 PM) ... Mar 19 2006, 01:16 AM
AlexBlackwell QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 19 2006, 01:16 A... Mar 20 2006, 05:13 PM
ljk4-1 http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/ne...60406... Apr 12 2006, 06:23 PM
BruceMoomaw Four more Aviation Week letters on the BlackStar s... Apr 21 2006, 01:20 PM
tty Piggybacking on a B-70 would not be a good idea ae... Apr 21 2006, 05:07 PM
ljk4-1 Black projects don't seem to be having any bud... May 23 2006, 07:09 PM
climber I heard this week on the radio that the whole USA ... May 23 2006, 07:34 PM
ljk4-1 Looks like they had a plan similar to the one from... May 23 2006, 08:15 PM![]() ![]() |
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