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Is Europa really the "highest priority" of the community?, Cleave said it was at LPSC?
mcaplinger
post Mar 15 2006, 05:50 PM
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From Emily's LPSC blog: "Bob Pappalardo would not sit down until he got Cleave to acknowledge that Europa is the consensus highest priority of the planetary science community."

Cleave was obviously poorly prepared for this session, but I don't see that this acknowledgement is either meaningful or particularly accurate. If Europa were the "highest priority" of the PS community as a whole, then one might wonder why we were spending all this money on Mars. I could easily imagine that Europa is the highest priority of the outer planets community, but frankly I was surprised when Europa Orbiter appeared in the '07 budget (presumably the result of some serious lobbying on someone's part.) It was pretty obvious to me then that there would be no money for it, especially in the aftermath of JPL running the old EO project into the ground with cost overruns and engineering upscopes. (And JIMO is best forgotten.)

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be involved with a Europa mission (we did what I think was a good proposal design for EO) but I don't see either the money or the political support being there in the near term. I know it's frustrating, but one has to be realistic, and it might help to avoid the aura of entitlement that I perceive is building in some parts of the community (not referring to you, Bob). Of course, I am just a lowly engineer.


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Disclaimer: This post is based on public information only. Any opinions are my own.
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Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Mar 21 2006, 03:53 AM
Post #2





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John Rehling's idea for Europa Orbiter just might be workable -- IF they want it badly enough.

EO, since it will now use a VEEGA gravity assist to get to Jupiter, will have a hell of a lot of payload margin -- about 340 kg worth (after it gets into Europa orbit), which is why they're considering a lander. An alternative use being very seriously considered for at least some of that mass margin is to instead increase its shielding, since EO can extend its lifetime in Europa orbit (currently 3 months) by 1 month for every 100 kg more shielding. An alternative use for that shielding could be to allow it to make a few close Io flybys before entering Europa orbit. However, this might also require additional propellant, depending on the design of its Jupiter-orbiting phase (the plan for EO, from the start, has been to have it make a gravity-assist flyby of Ganymede to help brake into Jupiter orbit, instead of using Io as Galileo did).

It's also true that the larger instrument payload they now plan for EO would be well-designed to study Io as well -- high-res and medium-res cameras, near-IR and mass spectrometers (and maybe X-ray and UV ones too), a thermal mapper, fields and particles instruments.
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- mcaplinger   Is Europa really the "highest priority" of the community?   Mar 15 2006, 05:50 PM
- - elakdawalla   That was slightly sloppy reporting on my part, and...   Mar 15 2006, 07:19 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 15 2006, 07:19 P...   Mar 15 2006, 07:43 PM
|- - Marz   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 15 2006, 01:19 P...   Mar 15 2006, 08:04 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 15 2006, 07:19 P...   Mar 16 2006, 04:51 AM
- - djellison   If you're in your 20's - you have Cassini ...   Mar 15 2006, 07:29 PM
|- - paxdan   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2006, 07:29 PM)...   Mar 15 2006, 07:34 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (paxdan @ Mar 15 2006, 07:34 PM) On...   Mar 15 2006, 07:53 PM
|- - gpurcell   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2006, 07:29 PM)...   Mar 16 2006, 01:57 PM
||- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (gpurcell @ Mar 16 2006, 08:57 AM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 02:27 PM
|||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 16 2006, 02:27 P...   Mar 16 2006, 04:12 PM
|||- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 16 2006, 11:12...   Mar 16 2006, 05:36 PM
|||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 16 2006, 05:36 P...   Mar 16 2006, 09:15 PM
||- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (gpurcell @ Mar 16 2006, 05:57 AM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 02:57 PM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (gpurcell @ Mar 16 2006, 01:57 PM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 04:26 PM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 16 2006, 04:26 PM)...   Mar 16 2006, 04:33 PM
||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 16 2006, 04:26 PM)...   Mar 16 2006, 05:28 PM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Mar 16 2006, 05:28 PM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 05:33 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2006, 07:29 PM)...   Mar 16 2006, 04:22 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Mar 16 2006, 08:22 AM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 04:46 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 16 2006, 04:46 PM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 04:47 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 16 2006, 11:46 AM) ...   Mar 16 2006, 05:12 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 15 2006, 05:50 PM...   Mar 15 2006, 07:31 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Not only did the 2002 Decadal Survey rank Europa a...   Mar 15 2006, 10:43 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 15 2006, 10:43 P...   Mar 15 2006, 10:58 PM
|- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 15 2006, 02:43 P...   Mar 15 2006, 11:22 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 15 2006, 11:22 P...   Mar 15 2006, 11:56 PM
||- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 15 2006, 03:56...   Mar 16 2006, 01:46 AM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 16 2006, 01:46 A...   Mar 16 2006, 01:53 AM
||- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 15 2006, 05:53...   Mar 16 2006, 01:57 AM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Mar 16 2006, 01:57 A...   Mar 16 2006, 02:05 AM
||- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 15 2006, 06:05...   Mar 16 2006, 02:27 AM
|- - JRehling   I'm profoundly disturbed by the notion that th...   Mar 16 2006, 01:26 AM
- - nprev   Sad to see all this intramural political wrangling...   Mar 16 2006, 12:45 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 15 2006, 05:50 PM...   Mar 16 2006, 02:14 AM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 15 2006, 08:14 P...   Mar 18 2006, 04:50 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 18 2006, 04:50 PM) ...   Mar 19 2006, 12:54 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Regarding Titan exploration: the PS community curr...   Mar 16 2006, 03:00 AM
|- - vjkane2000   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 15 2006, 08:00 P...   Mar 16 2006, 04:58 AM
- - remcook   That's pretty depressing, especially if you wa...   Mar 16 2006, 03:37 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   Andrew Lawler has an excellent article ("A Sp...   Mar 16 2006, 09:31 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Yeah, before we start sniffling too much about our...   Mar 17 2006, 04:33 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 17 2006, 04:33 A...   Mar 17 2006, 08:26 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Mar 17 2006, 08:26 AM) ...   Mar 17 2006, 03:40 PM
||- - mchan   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Mar 17 2006, 07:40 AM) ...   Mar 18 2006, 04:55 AM
||- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (mchan @ Mar 18 2006, 04:55 AM) Ros...   Mar 18 2006, 01:39 PM
||- - Tom Tamlyn   Emily Lakdawalla's latest blog entry has a cha...   Mar 18 2006, 04:57 PM
||- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (Tom Tamlyn @ Mar 18 2006, 04:57 PM...   Mar 19 2006, 01:22 AM
|||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 19 2006, 01:22 A...   Mar 20 2006, 05:58 PM
||- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Tom Tamlyn @ Mar 18 2006, 08:57 AM...   Mar 19 2006, 09:07 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   An improved version of the list: Active interpla...   Mar 18 2006, 05:35 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Though it has not been heard from since 2000, Pion...   Mar 18 2006, 05:49 PM
- - edstrick   As a boy, my dad (who worked as a quality control ...   Mar 17 2006, 09:52 AM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (edstrick @ Mar 17 2006, 04:52 AM) ...   Mar 17 2006, 01:06 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   Mark Peplow has an update in his LPSC blog.   Mar 18 2006, 12:47 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 17 2006, 04:47...   Mar 18 2006, 01:40 AM
- - elakdawalla   Aw, shucks, guys... I think only very few dieha...   Mar 19 2006, 06:42 AM
- - Mariner9   This whole situation reminds me a lot of the early...   Mar 19 2006, 08:53 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (Mariner9 @ Mar 19 2006, 08:53 PM) ...   Mar 20 2006, 10:31 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (Stephen @ Mar 20 2006, 11:31 AM) B...   Mar 20 2006, 01:15 PM
|- - JamesFox   QUOTE (Stephen @ Mar 20 2006, 05:31 AM) B...   Mar 20 2006, 01:29 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   There are other problems with running small missio...   Mar 20 2006, 01:42 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 19 2006, 05:42 P...   Mar 20 2006, 03:49 PM
- - djellison   I wonder what might be feasable using the Juno pla...   Mar 20 2006, 04:02 PM
- - Mariner9   Is one Europa orbiter more cost effective than 3 l...   Mar 20 2006, 04:29 PM
- - Mariner9   One last point. Viking was scaled down from o...   Mar 20 2006, 04:45 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   This is turning into an awfully interesting debate...   Mar 20 2006, 06:19 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 06:19 P...   Mar 20 2006, 09:10 PM
||- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 20 2006, 09:10...   Mar 20 2006, 10:01 PM
||- - JRehling   This has been insightful. Europa currently has la...   Mar 20 2006, 10:32 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 06:19 P...   Mar 21 2006, 12:41 AM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (Stephen @ Mar 21 2006, 12:41 AM) W...   Mar 21 2006, 12:48 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   I very much doubt it could transmit them fast enou...   Mar 21 2006, 02:49 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   This thing is apparently also quite a wide-angle c...   Mar 21 2006, 03:00 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 07:00 P...   Mar 21 2006, 03:32 AM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 21 2006, 03:32 AM) ...   Mar 21 2006, 06:35 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Looks like my whole idea was another pipe dream. ...   Mar 21 2006, 03:43 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 21 2006, 03:43 A...   Mar 21 2006, 05:56 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   John Rehling's idea for Europa Orbiter just mi...   Mar 21 2006, 03:53 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   While I'm on the subject of Europa Orbiter and...   Mar 21 2006, 04:03 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 08:03 P...   Mar 21 2006, 04:07 AM
||- - JRehling   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 20 2006, 08:07 PM...   Mar 21 2006, 08:01 AM
|- - mchan   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 08:03 P...   Mar 21 2006, 04:34 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Well, that's what they kept assuring all of us...   Mar 21 2006, 04:34 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 20 2006, 08:34 P...   Mar 21 2006, 04:46 AM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 21 2006, 04:46 AM...   Mar 21 2006, 10:03 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 21 2006, 02:03 P...   Mar 22 2006, 12:21 AM
- - dvandorn   Oh, gee -- that reminds me of an sf story I once r...   Mar 21 2006, 08:10 AM
- - edstrick   I last tested vaccuum tubes in the early 90's,...   Mar 21 2006, 09:02 AM
- - djellison   I think JUNO might actually do harm for the 'E...   Mar 21 2006, 07:44 PM
|- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 21 2006, 07:44 PM)...   Mar 21 2006, 08:03 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Mar 21 2006, 08:03...   Mar 21 2006, 10:36 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 21 2006, 02:36 P...   Mar 21 2006, 10:54 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 21 2006, 10:54 PM) ...   Mar 22 2006, 12:16 AM
- - JamesFox   What I was thinking of myself, is pretty much a Ne...   Mar 21 2006, 11:17 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (JamesFox @ Mar 21 2006, 03:17 PM) ...   Mar 21 2006, 11:33 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   It would take a LOT bigger retrorocket. By the ...   Mar 22 2006, 12:06 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Mar 21 2006, 04:06 P...   Mar 22 2006, 12:12 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Regarding other ideas: two of the second-tier NF m...   Mar 22 2006, 12:31 AM
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