My Assistant
Mars Sample Return |
Apr 7 2006, 07:32 AM
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#1
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 370 Joined: 12-September 05 From: France Member No.: 495 |
Next phase reached in definition of Mars Sample Return mission
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMJAGNFGLE_index_0.html |
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Jul 3 2007, 03:11 PM
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#2
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3419 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Minneapolis, MN, USA Member No.: 15 |
It all comes down to what you really want out of an MSR mission. Remember, Mars is a fairly big planet as far as rocky planets go. It has a significant gravity well which requires a lot more energy to escape than, say, Luna requires. It also has an atmosphere that gets annoyingly in the way as you try and leave, requiring more energy to achieve orbit from the surface than an airless body would.
So, sending a sample off the surface and back into Mars orbit is not an insignificant operation; it takes more fuel than you'd think. If you include the fuel needed to inject the sample into a trans-Earth trajectory, as well as the heat shielding needed to get it back to Earth intact, you're landing an awful lot of mass on Mars that is dedicated to the return-to-Earth systems. (I'm trying to get y'all used to the idea that an MSR return-to-earth stage on a lander is going to need to be a *lot* bigger, beefier and energetic than, say, the upper stage used by the Russian Luna sample return landers. It's not the "model rocket on a Viking" setup some artists have imagined, it's more like landing a Thor or a Delta on Mars and having it ready to launch with no ground support equipment beyond that you bring with you.) It would take an Ares V to get such a lander onto Mars with the ability to return more than a few grams of soil and rocks. Such a lander would be so heavy with just the fuel and other things needed to get your sample back to Earth that you'd have no mass left for roving to look for and pick up good samples, much less for a comprehensive survey sensor package. So, even though it requires three separate launches and spacecraft busses, the concept of splitting the mission into three major pieces -- the survey spacecraft, the surface launch spacecraft and the return-to-Earth spacecraft -- lets you distribute the weight required into pieces that don't all have to be landed and don't all have to support Earth return. Remember, the same booster can get kilograms into Mars orbit that can only get grams onto the surface. So -- if you want a single scoop of Martian soil, a sample that weighs no more than two or three kilograms, then a single spacercaft architecture is usable. If you want to return tens of kilograms of samples, and not just whatever a scoop can pick up from off the side of the lander deck, you're actually better off with the three-spacecraft architecture. Until and unless we make some propulsion system breakthroughs, it's just not energy-economical to do it with the single spacecraft concept -- not to get enough of a sample back to make the mission worthwhile, anyway. -the other Doug -------------------- “The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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Rakhir Mars Sample Return Apr 7 2006, 07:32 AM
RNeuhaus A very good article :Returning To Sample Mars, At ... Sep 5 2006, 04:50 PM
ljk4-1 Sample return has been highlighted as a key priori... Sep 21 2006, 05:08 PM
climber Isn't it a coïncidence! Mark Adler is talk... Sep 21 2006, 05:30 PM
spdf Funding a Mars sample return mission is not a good... Oct 13 2006, 09:51 AM
climber QUOTE (spdf @ Oct 13 2006, 11:51 AM) Fund... Oct 13 2006, 12:23 PM
RNeuhaus First watch how the russians will be doing by retu... Oct 13 2006, 07:14 PM
Zvezdichko QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Oct 13 2006, 07:14 PM) ... Jan 22 2007, 03:53 PM
PhilHorzempa Recent written comments by Alan Stern indicate tha... Jul 2 2007, 08:07 PM
hendric On the surface that sounds like a good idea, only ... Jul 2 2007, 08:40 PM
Analyst QUOTE (hendric @ Jul 2 2007, 08:40 PM) It... Jul 3 2007, 09:15 AM
helvick I don't think it can be done easily but I don... Jul 3 2007, 08:35 PM
antipode Drifting a bit OT here, but its obvious to all tha... Jul 3 2007, 11:21 PM
Phil Stooke Antipode, funny you should mention that, as I am n... Jul 4 2007, 12:22 AM
gndonald QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 4 2007, 08:22 AM... Jul 26 2007, 12:17 PM
nprev Sounds like one of the old Soviet manned Mars miss... Jul 4 2007, 05:51 AM
dvandorn Such a mission has a lot to be said for it. For o... Jul 4 2007, 04:24 PM
tty QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jul 4 2007, 06:24 PM) S... Jul 5 2007, 02:11 PM

gpurcell QUOTE (tty @ Jul 5 2007, 02:11 PM) Anothe... Jul 5 2007, 02:57 PM
mchan QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jul 4 2007, 09:24 AM) S... Jul 5 2007, 11:13 PM
helvick One fairly big problem that I see with the idea th... Jul 4 2007, 05:32 PM
dvandorn Well, it depends... the PIs have to get their resu... Jul 6 2007, 03:54 AM
centsworth_II Publish or perish? Jul 6 2007, 05:27 AM
dvandorn Literally!
-the other Doug Jul 6 2007, 06:06 AM
lyford RE: Mars Sample Return Jul 6 2007, 03:23 PM
AlexBlackwell Mars Mission May Be Moved Up
By Frank Morring, Jr.... Jul 6 2007, 11:40 PM
ustrax Didn't know where to put this...
"Let... Jul 26 2007, 10:44 AM
JRehling [...] Jul 26 2007, 08:56 PM
Phil Stooke gndonald:
"Was this by any chance the 'M... Jul 26 2007, 06:07 PM
nprev I get your point, JR. In all fairness, though, the... Jul 26 2007, 09:26 PM
Pavel I think you missed the "far into the future... Jul 26 2007, 09:42 PM
JRehling [...] Jul 27 2007, 09:01 PM
Jim from NSF.com QUOTE (JRehling @ Jul 27 2007, 05:01 PM) ... Jul 29 2007, 02:42 PM
JRehling [...] Aug 9 2007, 04:37 AM
Pavel Mars is also special because it the easiest extrat... Jul 27 2007, 10:26 PM
spdf A question here: If you have a ~30-40 kg small sat... Aug 1 2007, 03:55 AM
ElkGroveDan QUOTE (spdf @ Jul 31 2007, 07:55 PM) A qu... Aug 1 2007, 04:16 AM
helvick You can find some of my back of the envelope calcu... Aug 1 2007, 06:40 AM
nprev QUOTE (helvick @ Jul 31 2007, 11:40 PM) A... Aug 5 2007, 01:45 AM
monitorlizard I'm probably going to get my head handed to me... Aug 17 2007, 08:01 AM
djellison Well - yes - carnage indeed. Instead of a 5kg lit... Aug 17 2007, 08:29 AM
monitorlizard Thanks, Doug. I knew I was going to be defeated o... Aug 17 2007, 09:03 AM
djellison It's not 'defeated' - I mean, there... Aug 17 2007, 09:11 AM
Cugel Of course the points Doug mentions are valid and p... Aug 17 2007, 09:27 AM
djellison I think a sample cache cannister would have a smal... Aug 17 2007, 09:36 AM
Cugel A cube-sat? Hmmm, I believe at Delft University (H... Aug 17 2007, 02:05 PM
djellison Cubesats are a well established and popular platfo... Aug 17 2007, 02:28 PM
Cugel So I guess the 'cannister' could look some... Aug 18 2007, 01:08 PM
nprev This may be WAY off base, but has anyone considere... Aug 19 2007, 04:09 AM
mcaplinger QUOTE (nprev @ Aug 18 2007, 09:09 PM) eve... Oct 18 2007, 08:37 PM
The Messenger Good question. Solid fuels have a great track reco... Aug 19 2007, 05:37 AM
tty QUOTE (The Messenger @ Aug 19 2007, 07:37... Aug 19 2007, 07:01 PM
djellison Or the CONTOUR kick stage
Doug Aug 19 2007, 07:48 PM
Jim from NSF.com Or the two HS-376's on PAM's of STS 41-B
... Aug 20 2007, 11:36 AM
nprev Hmm. Doug & Jim, if you had to shoot from the ... Aug 21 2007, 02:52 AM
John Whitehead Here are some comments about "how to get off ... Sep 19 2007, 12:07 AM
Jim from NSF.com QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Sep 18 2007, 08:0... Oct 16 2007, 11:09 AM
monitorlizard mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/Announcements/Stern_MEPAG_Summa... Oct 14 2007, 02:15 PM
John Whitehead Thanks to monitorlizard for pointing out the Sep24... Oct 16 2007, 03:25 AM
monitorlizard "There's essentially nothing out there th... Oct 16 2007, 12:34 PM
monitorlizard Rats! I see I'm off by a factor of ten in... Oct 16 2007, 01:07 PM
John Whitehead "Jim from NSF.com" noted earlier today t... Oct 16 2007, 11:50 PM
nprev It seems that for sake of economy and simplicity a... Oct 17 2007, 12:16 AM
monitorlizard I concede now that I was way off with the ASAT ide... Oct 17 2007, 12:00 PM
djellison QUOTE (monitorlizard @ Oct 17 2007, 01:00... Oct 17 2007, 01:10 PM
John Whitehead You're right, nprev, that a solid first stage ... Oct 17 2007, 06:51 PM
Jim from NSF.com QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Oct 17 2007, 02:5... Oct 18 2007, 12:34 AM

John Whitehead QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Oct 18 2007, 12... Oct 19 2007, 01:10 AM
nprev QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Oct 17 2007, 11:5... Oct 18 2007, 01:21 AM
John Whitehead QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 18 2007, 01:21 AM) Joh... Oct 18 2007, 01:41 AM
tty QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Oct 18 2007, 03:4... Oct 18 2007, 08:35 AM
John Whitehead QUOTE (tty @ Oct 18 2007, 08:35 AM) That ... Oct 18 2007, 11:42 PM
nprev Thanks, John.
Hmm...sounds like a real challenge ... Oct 18 2007, 01:51 AM
hendric There are some hybrid rockets, that have a solid f... Oct 18 2007, 09:44 PM
nprev Hate to even bring this up, but it sure seems like... Oct 19 2007, 12:59 AM
John Whitehead QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 19 2007, 12:59 AM) Hat... Oct 19 2007, 01:26 AM
JRehling [...] Oct 19 2007, 05:30 AM
djellison QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 19 2007, 01:59 AM) a h... Oct 19 2007, 07:27 AM
Mark Adler QUOTE (djellison @ Oct 19 2007, 12:27 AM)... Nov 4 2007, 11:52 PM
djellison QUOTE (Mark Adler @ Nov 4 2007, 11:52 PM)... Nov 5 2007, 07:59 AM
ElkGroveDan And wouldn't you know it, I bet there isn... Nov 5 2007, 02:19 AM
dvandorn I dunno, Dan -- the last MSR concept I saw (back i... Nov 5 2007, 07:04 AM
John Whitehead QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 5 2007, 07:04 AM) .... Nov 8 2007, 01:54 AM
dvandorn QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Nov 7 2007, 08:54... Nov 8 2007, 08:09 AM
mcaplinger QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 8 2007, 12:09 AM) T... Nov 8 2007, 02:44 PM
John Whitehead QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 8 2007, 08:09 AM) .... Nov 8 2007, 08:04 PM
PhilCo126 Well, don't want to start any debates but reme... Nov 5 2007, 11:12 AM
ElkGroveDan QUOTE (PhilCo126 @ Nov 5 2007, 03:12 AM) ... Nov 5 2007, 03:11 PM
PhilCo126 Indeed an awkard looking spacecraft and this ... Nov 5 2007, 07:46 PM
nprev Might be worth considering & contrasting US ... Nov 6 2007, 02:08 AM
John Whitehead QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 6 2007, 02:08 AM) Migh... Nov 7 2007, 11:09 PM
AndyG QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Nov 7 2007, 11:09... Nov 8 2007, 09:43 AM
mcaplinger QUOTE (AndyG @ Nov 8 2007, 01:43 AM) I... Nov 8 2007, 02:28 PM
nprev Fascinating & ingenious; really doing more wit... Nov 8 2007, 01:31 AM
John Whitehead QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 8 2007, 01:31 AM) ...i... Nov 8 2007, 02:27 AM
algorimancer There's been discussion elsewhere of the conce... Nov 8 2007, 02:28 PM
John Whitehead QUOTE (algorimancer @ Nov 8 2007, 02:28 P... Nov 8 2007, 08:27 PM
nprev Understood. KISS has to be the guiding principle h... Nov 9 2007, 03:05 AM
mcaplinger QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 8 2007, 07:05 PM) KISS... Nov 9 2007, 04:53 AM![]() ![]() |
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