[X] My Assistant

[Stu]

So far images of Victoria - from orbit and from the ground, as Oppy approaches - have been tantalising at best, and frustrating at worst. What does everyone think we've seen so far, and what features do you think we'll see as Oppy approaches and later, when she finally arrives?

[Bill Harris]

Good topic, Stu. I'm doing catch-up work after being out of town and am running short on time, so let me start off by posting the three images of Victoria that have been in use for several months.

--Bill

[prometheus]

Hi Stu,

Thanks for starting a new thread. For what it's worth here is my xeyed Victoria study:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...=50726&st=285&#

[Phil Stooke]

A new image is included in the most recent release:

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/s05_s10/im...5/S0500863.html

Phil

[Bob Shaw]

Can anyone locate Opportunity on the image to which Phil posted a link?

Bob Shaw

[dot.dk]

Can anyone locate Opportunity on the image to which Phil posted a link?

She is not visible in that image. She is off to the left of the image.

[David]

A new image is included in the most recent release:

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/s05_s10/im...5/S0500863.html

Phil

Those dark streaks off the north side of Victoria weren't there before, were they? Maybe that's something worth investigating.

[prometheus]

Recent edge slip in Victoria?

[SigurRosFan]

Those dark streaks off the north side of Victoria weren't there before, were they? Maybe that's something worth investigating.

More about this streaks ...

- http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...topic=1530&st=0

[ElkGroveDan]

Victoria and her features, ....what will we see when we get there?

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[SigurRosFan]

Can anyone locate Opportunity on the image to which Phil posted a link?

Bob Shaw

Like this?

Source image: http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2006/01/24/ (released on Jan 24)

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Stu]

Just a bit of fun... know it's not even 5% accurate, just a fantasy "Kodak Moment"

What we might see

[prometheus]

Hi Stu,

Cruise around the crater edge at 600x using StereoPhotoMaker. Breathtaking.

[SteveM]

All the orbiter images of Victoria lead to the question: Does anyone know if the geometry of these images differs enough that the mapping gurus will be able to derive a photogrammetric Digital Elevation Model of Victoria.

I know there's a DEM of the west half, but only MOLA data for the east half (Pertinax used them both in the discussion of visibility in Victoria on the Horizon).

Caution on the MOLA data: Note that Victoria is not particularly well represented in the MOLA data. What we are seeing is one or two MOLA data points from somewhere inside Victoria being interpolated over to the nearist MOLA data points somewhere outside of Victoria (not necesarily from the rim)....

-- Pertinax

It would be nice to be able to fill in the gaps of the MOLA data across all of Victoria.

It seems Promethius answered my question before I even posted it. There is stereo detail there.

This post has been edited by Steve: Apr 15 2006, 05:42 PM

[Stu]

Prometheus,

Outstanding image, thanks!

"Cruising" around that rim as you suggest proves that there's a lot of modification going on - there are several places where material has slid down into the crater, changing the appearance and profile of the edge. This seems to be a very dynamic place. Might be - as others have pointed out - a dangerous one too. Oppy will have to tread very carefully as she edges around Victoria.

[SteveM]

Stu,

I agree, the images are truly awesome. But I don't see any modifications between the images, only parallax effects. Any places where material slid into the crater look much the same in both images, but only displaced and stretched by the different perspective.

[Stu]

Steve,

Really? I think I can see several places where wasting has occurred - the actual shapes of some of the outcrops has changed. Can't point you to them right now; Dr Who's about to start here in the UK...!

[SigurRosFan]

MOLA meets Victoria

I think it's worth to mention it. Note Pertinax' Victoria profiles:

- http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...indpost&p=48507

- http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...indpost&p=48607

- http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...indpost&p=48635

[Tman]

Agree with Steve. There're no evidences for recent edge slumping.
These two images show a very small period of Mars time. There it have to be few debris visible at least.

Apropos debris, Victoria seems to be a relatively young crater in comparison to Erebus, but all-around debris of the impact ablated and disappeared because the impact took place millions years ago maybe.

[Stu]

Didn't the MGS imaging team announce they'd actually imaged gully formation and dust slides - on images taken several months (or was it years?) apart - last year? I seem to remember that being a big deal at the time...

Maybe just seeing what we - I - want to see, but it doesn't seem impossible to me, if only because of the obvious fragility of the structures we can see extending into the crater from its edge. Undercut them with wind - something's making those dunes on the crater floor - long enough and they'd get a bit doddery, surely?

Only one thing for it - redirect MRO to fly-over Victoria immediately, we demand it!

Seriously tho, even if there's no modification going on here, Victoria is going to be absolutely fascinating close-up.

[Tman]

Didn't the MGS imaging team announce they'd actually imaged gully formation and dust slides - on images taken several months (or was it years?) apart - last year? I seem to remember that being a big deal at the time...

Yeah there are some images of recent chances from the MOC.

These structures that extending into the Victoria crater could maybe a bit undercut - but my guess is they don't. But either way - your image of hanging edges is a great vision!

[marswiggle]

Not willing to tread on your toes, prometheus - I was doing this while you sent your definitive version of Victoria in 3-d, thanks for it!

This is showing a bit larger area. Only a crude x-eyed handiwork, using the new MGS image and one of those older ones in B. H.'s composite above. What amazes me is the absolutely flat surroundings of VC, and all of a sudden this tremendous abyss. VC must be some kind of a collapsed crater.

edit: See post #25 below for more usable version, friendly converted by Bob Shaw.

This post has been edited by marswiggle: Apr 16 2006, 11:55 PM

[algorimancer]

Cruise around the crater edge at 600x using StereoPhotoMaker. Breathtaking.

Wow, I know that vertical scale must be exaggerated, but that seems to be one heck of an overhang between 10 and 11 o-clock (and generally in that quadrant). Then there's the crater on the rim at the bottom - surely that happened after Victoria formed, so why isn't the rim more distorted in its vicinity? Gotta see that up close. I don't see any safe means of entering Vicky. Hopefully it will look more accessible once Oppy gets there.

[SteveM]

I checked the data on images R1400021 and R2200640 at the USGS catalog of MOC images and found there isn't data on image orientation, and hence on the convergence of the images.

There is, however, the altitude of the spacecraft and the slant range to the image center. A little trigonometry and we find R1400021 deviates from the vertical by 24.0° and R22000640 by 15.8°. Depending on the geometry, the images converge by anywhere from 39.8° to 8.2°. Although a larger convergence would be great, either should give enough elevation information to fill in some of the gaps in the MOLA data.

Does anyone of the experts here know a source for image orientation parameters to get a better convergence figure?

[Bob Shaw]

Here's a shrunken version of the image above.

If there's a way in, I'd say the on-ramp is at 9:10 (on a clock face). I see zero in the way of impact features - this is all about mass wasting.

Bob Shaw

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[MaxSt]

What we might see

Wow!

[Pando]

Here's an animated stereo image I made from Viccy's MOC images, kind of like a smooth flicker-GIF:

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[dot.dk]

Here's an animated stereo image I made from Viccy's MOC images, kind of like a smooth flicker-GIF:

Wow! That's awesome!

Getting dizzy almost

[RNeuhaus]

Just a bit of fun... know it's not even 5% accurate, just a fantasy "Kodak Moment"

What we might see

Impressive picture. It would be very alike since the depth of Victoria crater is around 35 meters from the surface, its depth is like a building of 13 floors.

Other thing, I have realized that the rim of Victoria is not circular but zigzag. It might be due to the landslide of land (gullies) caused by the water or aeolian erosion.

Besides, the south of rim has more extension of ligther color than the north ones. The north is coverd by the dark color. I suppose that the prominent wind comes from the South east (watch the formation of ripples at the bottom) and it caused the dark tail on the northern Victoria rim.

Since the Victoria's rim has zigzag shape, I am afraid to approach to the rim since some of them might be so fragil that with the Oppy's extra weight might cause a new gully.

Rodolfo

[abalone]

For those who like anaglyphs

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[marswiggle]

Here's a shrunken version of the image above.

Thanks, it's better like that.

Has anyone compared the new MGS release with the earlier one for all the way from End to VC? I put the two (jpegs) side by side, and my preliminary analysis tells that there's rather impressive stereo effect all over the area. Endurance shows up as a nice dimple, and the eastern part of Erebus, visible in both images, is clearly bowl-shaped. Even some big dunes appear in 3 d.
(I'm sorry, I did not succeed in rendering more images.)

Which leads to a really interesting supposition: as far as I could see, the inside of Victoria has very similar diameter/depth ratio to that of Endurance, and accordingly, the W/NW 'ramps' of VC should be sloping at comparable angles to the southern ramp of Endurance. Maybe not so inaccessible abyss after all.

[CosmicRocker]

marswiggle: I think most any pair of orbiter images taken on different passes will contain stereo data, since it is unlikely that the images were taken from the same places relative to the surface. I have been slaving for several days, trying to make a useful anaglyph of Victoria Crater and the ground Opportunity must traverse to get there. Tonight I paused to catch up with the discussions here, and discovered that Malin Space Science Systems has already posted that anaglyph.

Your observation that, "...as far as I could see, the inside of Victoria has very similar diameter/depth ratio to that of Endurance..." is interesting. At first, Victoria's apparent slopes were deceiving me. It may not be as dangerous as it appears.

Like this?

Source image: http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2006/01/24/ (released on Jan 24)

SigurRosFan: Thank you for mentioning that. I didn't know it existed. I wish they would have provided one at full resolution. That one is beautiful, though. I think we now have at least three passes over this region, with one of them being a c-PROTO that could add detail to the area outside the crater.

[djellison]

Thanks, it's better like that.

Has anyone compared the new MGS release with the earlier one for all the way from End to VC?

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2006/01/24/

Doug

[Guest_Oersted_*]

Thanks for all these wonderful 3D-views of Victoria and the "What we might see"-view!

However, it seems to me that the 3D effect, the depth of the crater, has been exaggerated in all the views. Surely it cannot be that deep with respect to its diameter?! Could somebody do a more realistic cross-eye/anaglyph view of the crater, with a less exaggerated depth-to-diameter-ratio?

[tanjent]

Here's a shrunken version of the image above.

If there's a way in, I'd say the on-ramp is at 9:10 (on a clock face). I see zero in the way of impact features - this is all about mass wasting.

Bob Shaw

This picture in Bob's post #25 and others like it make it appear that on approach from Erebus, Oppy will come in on the difficult side if she is really going to try to descend into the crater. It is hard to gague what role is played by the lighting, but most of the other potential entrance ramps seem to be in the 2:00-5:00 sector. That would be a difficult trek around the rim, so we should hope that the 9:10 feature allows safe access. Stu's simulated images make dramatic eye candy but underscore that the engineering team will be faced with some very tough choices!

It also appears that the interior slopes all around are much sandier than at Endurance. If prospects for entry appear barely possible but without hope of exit, is there any good reason why we should not be content to see the mission end this way? Alternatively, how much science would be sacrificed by simply remainig up on the rim, given the shaky condition of the IDD and the depleted state of the Mossbauer radiation source?

Peter

[Stu]

I must say thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread so far, I had no idea my "eye candy" simulated view would prompt such debate! Have to stress again that I'm not saying for a moment that that is what Victoria will actually look like - slopes not as steep, and there won't be any Dali-esque drapes and slumps of material melting over the crater's lip either - it really was just a bit of fun. Some serious points and questions have been raised tho. Just how dangerous will Oppy find it chugging along the edge? Will we see fresh landslides or even gullies tumbling down into the interior? Will it be safe for Oppy to head down into the crater? I have an image now of our brave little rover edging into the crater very nervously, like R2D2 rolling through that canyon in the first Star Wars film, hooting and beeping anxiously at every shadow and skipping stone...

Gorgeous images everyone's generously shared too - Pando, your animation was fantastic!

One thing's clear - Victoria is an amazing place already, even with this little data to go on. The closer we get, and the clearer our views, both from the ground and from orbit, become, the more fascinating it will become. What an adventure we're all living!

[Nix]

wonderful view Stu! amazing..

this probably has been remarked before but the jagged nature of the rim should provide a more comfortable investigation as opposed to Endurance, while cruising the rim. I expect more close-ups à la Burns Cliff without risking slippage into the deep.

Nico

[Stu]

Wondering if we can start putting names to some of the features we've all been drooling over..?

Thinking: the "outcrops" - that now don't look so crumbly or fragile anymore - seem to be pretty solid, with some layering and ledges, so they can probably be more accurately described as terraces... I've identified 5 "terraces" which stand out from the rest, and are already showing some detail that our ImageMages can tease out further, I'm sure...! So, going clockwise, we have Ts 1 to 5 to christen (just for our own info, not going to be the final names of course!) and the four main areas where dark material seems to be coming from along the crater's edge, well, we can call them vents possibly..?.. though they're not vents in the strictest sense of the word, I know... So, again going clockwise, we have Vs 1 to 4 to name too. Then there's the crater on the southern edge to name too.

If no-one wants to join in fair enough, I just thought it might a) be a bit of fun, a way to kill time while Oppy trundles south and Spirit enjoys a duvet season at haven, and it will help us discuss certain areas more clearly from now on.



Link to larger version of "map"

[Bob Shaw]

Stu:

Here's a slightly distorted (Reverse Phil-O-Vision) version of your image, with a depth/width ratio which I think may be more realistic.

And as for names, it's obvious that Opportunity is looking out over the edge of Stu's Gulch!

Bob Shaw

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Stu]

Like that a lot Bob! Much more accurate than my original.

[Bob Shaw]

Stu:

I'd take your terraces as a good enough description of the form of those particular outcrops, but I see more outcrops - or at least more-or-less-linear dark patches - around the rim, some radial and some concentric. These might be Burns Cliff quality exposures and would have the advantage of being easy to access. If the local beds are dipping as has been surmised, then we might, by traversing at least a minimum of 50% of the crater rim get some good stratigraphic sequences (certainly comparable to any in-crater investigation, remembering that the talus slopes and dunefield will reveal only individual rocks at best rather than their position in relation to everything else (though 'erratic' rocks like Wopmay might allow us to sample depths which otherwise would be unreachable)).

One caveat with regard to the orbital images is that they tend to accentuate features depending on the illumination - we may find that some of the external relief is much more subtle than we expect.

I've added a few features to your map showing 'my' exposures.

Bob Shaw

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Stu]

Thanks Bob, I agree there are many more outcrops along the rim, I just picked out the five most obvious and most detailed to start with. Figured "start small", you know? Besides, not wanting people to think I was staking some prospector's claim to Victoria!

Possible "themes" for Victoria topography nomenclature:

* Arthurian legend
* Characters from Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy
* Characters from Sherlock Holmes stories

...?

P.S. New short story about Opportunity and Victoria Crater here

[RNeuhaus]

Below, I am trying to describe the factors that influenced its present Victoria Crater shape.

About the amount of sand and visible outcrop around the Victoria crater. As the rule of thumb, (I think) the amount of sand is the result of land silhouette forms, wind direction and its strenght.

It is evident that the southern rim has lower depth (20 meters versus 30 meteres from northern rims) See Pertinex's post http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...pic=1443&st=180

The southern VC's rim has smoother slope than the north. It might be explained that during the time when that zone had water, the water had influenced the sand deposition more tiime on the southern than the northern (vertical).

On the other hand, the northern side, has more gullies or landsliding of sand or rocks. It is explained that the northern rim has more zigzag shape and more "gullies" than the southern side.

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...pe=post&id=5180

Rodolfo

[Phil Stooke]

Victoria crater is named for Magellan's ship, the only one of five in the original fleet which completed the first circumnavigation of Earth.

I would suggest choosing names associated with that expedition, names of people, other ships in the fleet, and places associated with the voyage.

Phil

[Stu]

Great idea Phil, makes perfect sense. Looks like a Googling session is in order...

Edit: a little later...

Wow, had a very quick look and there are some really poetic names we can use...

Islands (for outcrops & terraces?) : Cabo, Tenerife, Bolyna, "Thieves Island", Macangor...
Bays (for eroded areas cutting into surrounding area?): St Matthew, Port St. Julian, Carpyan, "Valley Without Peril", "Bay of Labors"...
Rivers (for any gullies found?): Rio, St Christopher, Santa Cruz...
Other misc: Mt. Saint Paul (please can we use this name for T2?), "Cape of the Virgins"...

Lots to work with just there, and I'm sure members more familiar with Magellan's voyages than I will have even more beautiful names to decorate our map with...

[imipak]

Here's an animated stereo image I made from Viccy's MOC images, kind of like a smooth flicker-GIF:

What an extraordinary image - thanks, Pando! Unless the effect produced by this anaglyph is completely misleading, I can't see any way into VC - none that would leave Oppy in working order at the bottom, anyway. Personally I couldn't see much evidence of actual change in previous images pairs, but in this image there are clearly several areas where more than the lighting has changed. The sides appear effectively sheer drops in most places.

[Bill Harris]

So Victoria is named after Magellan's ship? And here I have been thinking that it was named after the British Queen. Oh well...

I wouldn't fret about _how_ Oppy will enter Victoria at this point in time. A boots-on-the-ground inspection will be needed to determine that; at any rate, I suspect that Oppy will be doing 360* round-the-rim survey with Pancam panoramas before going inside for a close-up survey. I'll also suspect that the rim will generally be like the Mogollon Rim at Erebus: the gently draping evaporite over the darker units, but with steeper/taller bluffs and with several entryways.

Great imagery and thoughts; we'll be there 'fore we know it.

--Bill

[djellison]

All the craters at Meridiani are named after vessels of exploration.

Fram was a tender to the Endurance. Some of them are spacecraft vessels ( Eagle, Viking, Voyager, Vostok )

Doug

[Shaka]

Great idea Phil, makes perfect sense. Looks like a Googling session is in order...

Lots to work with just there, and I'm sure members more familiar with Magellan's voyages than I will have even more beautiful names to decorate our map with...

I'm sure Ustrax can help out here. With all due respects to Senhor Magellan, I would make the following humble suggestion, hoping that it might appeal to JPL, if not UMSF..
Assuming that we reach it, and it is a crater, and we can take a panorama of it for her to show to her grandchildren:
I would anticipate that we will, if possible, try to circle at least half the rim to get a thorough view of the Victoria interior before we enter. Thus it could well be that Sofi's crater will be close to the point where we enter Victoria. Perhaps there will also be some preference for the south, north-facing, upwind (?), less-sandy (?) crater wall? I wouldn't be surprised, at this early juncture, if the T3 area became one of the first study sites.
Speculation is loads of fun.

[algorimancer]

So Victoria is named after Magellan's ship? And here I have been thinking that it was named after the British Queen. Oh well...

I wouldn't fret about _how_ Oppy will enter Victoria at this point in time. A boots-on-the-ground inspection will be needed to determine that; at any rate, I suspect that Oppy will be doing 360* round-the-rim survey with Pancam panoramas before going inside for a close-up survey. I'll also suspect that the rim will generally be like the Mogollon Rim at Erebus: the gently draping evaporite over the darker units, but with steeper/taller bluffs and with several entryways.
--Bill

I also thought it was named after the "virgin queen", and was hoping that the name wouldn't turn-out to be prophetic as regards being able to get into the crater (tiptoeing around political correctness here...). We'll find out soon enough

[djellison]

Of course, a 750M wide crater is 2.3km around - given that one would hope to drive perhaps 10-30m from the rim, a 'lap' of Victoria could be as much 2.4, 2.5 km. That's a lot more driving to be asking of a tired little rover. I'd be happier with a quarter-lap of the crater to produce a high resolution DEM of the crater for planning, and then entry somewhere on the Northern rim around late spring

Doug

[BEHSTeacher]

Did somebody mention the dark streaks heading N from VC were (reletively) new features?
I have a hypothesis about their origin...
Looking at the beautiful 3D view at http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2006/01/24/ I can see a cliff between V2 and V3 descending into the crater. About halfway down the soil abruptly turns dark, perhaps newly exposed soil. The debris in the crater seems devoid of large rocks or boulders so the sides may not be more compressed clay-like soil that is prone to landslides. The dark plumes may be the resulting dust cloud released by a recent slide carried off to the north by the prevalent wind. A slightly older slide might the gully as mentioned before - the dark plume is not as dark having brightened because of sunlight exposure.

I'm a longtime lurker and enthousiastic about this mission - so don't be too harsh in tearing this idea apart.

[Dyche Mullins]

I also thought it was named after the "virgin queen", and was hoping that the name wouldn't turn-out to be prophetic as regards being able to get into the crater (tiptoeing around political correctness here...). We'll find out soon enough

You are thinking of Elizabeth. Victoria had 9 kids and so while she may have been a prude she was not so much of a virgin. So, if the name does turn out to be prophetic, we can expect at least nine productive incursions.

[Phil Stooke]

algorimancer said "I also thought it was named after the "virgin queen"".

Queen Victoria may have looked like a bad-tempered old prune but she was no virgin! Elizabeth I was the virgin queen... so-called.

Doug said "Fram was a tender to the Endurance."

Fram was used by Nansen in the Arctic and by Amundsen in the Antarctic, several years before Shackleton's expedition in the Endurance. I suppose it's not impossible that Fram was used as a tender for Endurance, but that's hardly its claim to fame.

Phil

[Bill Harris]

>That's a lot more driving to be asking of a tired little rover.

Ah, we have become so accustomed to Oppy attaining the unattainable that a 2.5km journey around the crater is not unthinkable. But you're correct, that would be more a publicity stunt and less good science.

A quarter lap, and then down the rabbit hole makse more sense.

I think that the dark northern streaks are simply aeolian/windblown deposits of the dark lower unit, just as there is the usual light-toned "evaporite" streak SE of most craters. The mystery why the change in wind direction (likely seasonal) and why these non-typical dark streaks at this crater.

We'll figure it out, eventually.

--Bill

[ElkGroveDan]

So Victoria is named after Magellan's ship? And here I have been thinking that it was named after the British Queen.

So did I.
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...indpost&p=50768

[CosmicRocker]

This was a good topic to start; so thanks to Stu for that, and for the nice, simulated view of VC. Thanks also to everyone else for their contributions.

Regarding the dark streaks on the north side, I think they are likely caused by light colored dust being eroded by wind vortices, created by the topographic expression of the north rim. See how the lines converge to points on that edge. That makes me think that those vertices would be good locations for Opportunity to park for a while to get a good solar panel cleaning.

[djellison]

Fram was used by Nansen in the Arctic and by Amundsen in the Antarctic,

Quite right - not quite sure where I got the tender idea into my head.

Doug

[Stu]

nine productive incursions

Aaah, and they say romance is dead...!

Loving how this discussion is going, some great theories and speculation. I agree that a complete lap of the crater is almost certainly too much to ask for, as Doug pointed out. So, the first big question is, I guess, which direction do we head in after our first peek over the edge? I suppose that will be determined mainly by the appearance, appeal and scientific value of the features we see from our "First Look" location, but if you were in charge, which way would you go - east, to explore the sources of the dark plumes we see streaking away from the crater's edge, and beyond that to the two major terraces T1 and T2, or west, to go look at V4, the widest and most eroded of the plume sources, and beyond that, terrace T5, which appears to have some secondary terraces and layers within it..?

From what I've seen so far, detailed views of the northern rim features will only be obtained from the eastern or western sides, which is still quite a drive as Doug says. Just a shame that the south side isn't the north side, then we would have a grandstand panoramic sweeping view of all those lovely tall features on the northern rim... oh well...

Personally, I think I'd like to see Oppy head east, first to take a look at the plumes and one of their sources, then continue on to T1, because from there I reckon she'd 1) have a spectacular view of the dune field down below and the crater edge from T4 right round to V2 - a jaw-dropping panorama if ever there was one! - and 2) it would take her closer to an access point into the crater itself; heading west will take her away from any access points.

Again, personally, I'm dying to find out what lurks in the shadows between T5 and V1... what dramatic ledges, rockfalls and scree sprays are there just waiting to be photographed?

Shaka: nice idea about Sofi's Crater. I hope NASA is planning some way to immortalise her at one of the landing sites, it would only be fair, right?

Cosmic Rocker: nice idea about the "dark streaks" on the surface actually being areas cleaned of surface dust by the wind. After all, we see dust devils leaving dark scoured trails behind them, so there might be something worth looking at here, good call.

I can see I'm going to have to go edit my story to take account of all these excellent ideas.

[Bob Shaw]

Quite right - not quite sure where I got the tender idea into my head.

Doug

Doug:

Wasn't it because of the Elvis Presley song about the Scottish pigeon pie?

Bob Shaw

[algorimancer]

You are thinking of Elizabeth. Victoria had 9 kids and so while she may have been a prude she was not so much of a virgin. So, if the name does turn out to be prophetic, we can expect at least nine productive incursions.

You are of course correct... sorry, I always mix those two. Product of an American education, I'm sure

Let's hope it is indeed prophetic

[ustrax]

I would go for names related with Magellan's circumnavigation, (Victoria was the only ship that managed to return safe, with only 18 survivors aboard...), in this resumed text of the journey there are good examples for naming features:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1519magellan.html

Stu, nice to read here old friend!

[imipak]

Fram was used by Nansen in the Arctic and by Amundsen in the Antarctic, several years before Shackleton's expedition in the Endurance. I suppose it's not impossible that Fram was used as a tender for Endurance, but that's hardly its claim to fame.

Phil

I'd never heard of this vessel, and googled up this interesting site:
http://www.fram.museum.no/en/

Ob. relevant comment: seeing those images of the IDD in action reminded me that it's not just wheel problems that could slow Opportunity down. I'd be delighted to miss my bet of Sol 987 of course... I also just happened to get round to listening to the last audio update, and when asked how aggressive the driving strategy would be, Jim Bell said (words to the effect of) "Well, if we see a dinosaur bone or a supermarket trolley sticking out of the sand, we'll stop and take a look, but otherwise getting to Victoria is our top priority." I don't see any rusty metal baskets appearing so I wonder how the recent break fits into the strategy? Is it that Opportunity has to stop for a recharge after a few days' continuous driving, and took advantage of the break to do some closeup studies?

[Stu]

Okay, we all seem agreed that naming features after Magellan-related places, people etc is appropriate... let's start getting that map filled in! Can I open with suggesting we call outcrop/terrace T4 "Mount St Paul" (because of its apparrent height above the crater floor) and outcrop/terrace T2 "Thieves Island" because... well, because it's a cool name...

( Ustrax, good to see you back here too! Check out the new story here...)

[tty]

Doug said "Fram was a tender to the Endurance."

Fram was used by Nansen in the Arctic and by Amundsen in the Antarctic, several years before Shackleton's expedition in the Endurance. I suppose it's not impossible that Fram was used as a tender for Endurance, but that's hardly its claim to fame.
Phil

Fram was built for Nansen's expedition in 1893-96 when she drifted from northeastern Siberia across the Arctic Ocean to the North Atlantic. She was then used by Sverdrup for his expedition to the northern Parry Archipelago 1898-1900 and finally by Amundsen for his expedition to the South Pole in 1911-12.
She is arguably the must successful arctic exploration vessel ever built, but she was never a tender to Endurannce. Actually I think she is worth a larger crater than she got.
Fram is preserved in a museum at Bygdöy in Oslo and is definitely worth seeing if you ever visit Norway.

A few more ideas for Magellan-related names: Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego, Pigafetta

tty

[MizarKey]

Looking at the beautiful 3D view at http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2006/01/24/

Whew! I'm not nearly as worried about the apparent steepness of Victoria's walls...if you look at the 3d image of Endurance it looks like a monsterous drop too, but we all know what it was really like. Check out the attachment of Victoria side by side with Endurance.

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Bob Shaw]

Another name to conjure with is, of course, 'Discovery'. Here she is in dock at Dundee in Scotland, with the Moon behind her masts.

She looked a bit different in the movie.

Bob Shaw

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[centsworth_II]

Whew! I'm not nearly as worried about the apparent steepness of Victoria's walls...

Right! With all those kilometers of convoluted rim, there must be some approachable areas. It can't all be impassable. Remember what fun it was to imagine and trace possible paths into Endurance after the first panoramic views from the rim came down? Now multiply that several fold! We'll have plenty of time to mull over potential paths before Opportunity is ready to actually enter the crater.

[djellison]

Great Britain should be in there somewhere Fantastic boat.

Doug

[SigurRosFan]

Looking at the beautiful 3D view at http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2006/01/24/

This was the third reference - besides me (Post #11) and Doug (Post #33).

Btw: Welcome to Mars, BEHSTeacher!

[Stu]

MizarKey, that 3D view is stunning... sorry Nico and Doug, missed your refs first time round... and I agree, it actually makes Victoria look a rather less threatening place than I'd previously thought. All the detail around and beneath the outcrops makes them look a lot less dangerous and menacing than on other images - in fact, V4 now looks like a very convenient smooth ramp down into the crater... crying out to be called "The Valley Without Peril"! Maybe not totally without peril, it still looks VERY steep...

[BrianL]

MizarKey, that 3D view is stunning... sorry Nico and Doug, missed your refs first time round... and I agree, it actually makes Victoria look a rather less threatening place than I'd previously thought. All the detail around and beneath the outcrops makes them look a lot less dangerous and menacing than on other images - in fact, V4 now looks like a very convenient smooth ramp down into the crater... crying out to be called "The Valley Without Peril"! Maybe not totally without peril, it still looks VERY steep...

Won't the south facing slope at V4 pose a problem during the winter, which I assume it will still be when it gets there given the current breakneck pace.

Brian

[RNeuhaus]

According to the present Oppy pace toward Victoria Crater, it would be VC at around 2nd week of July, that is Winter. The most probably, Oppy must look for any place with good slope that is northern facing (southern rim) for powering its solar panel. That place might be a mandatory. Besides, the southern rim has smoother slope and also of soft ground sand (sand deposition) that is very good for going down but very bad for climbing.

However, sure, the rover team, will make a very cool evaluation to decide to go down or not depending upon the possibility to get out of the VC after the winter.

Rodolfo

[jamescanvin]

Quite right - not quite sure where I got the tender idea into my head.

Perhaps you were thinking of the James Caird?

[DFinfrock]

Okay, we all seem agreed that naming features after Magellan-related places, people etc is appropriate...

Of course, you're right. Scientific probity, etc. etc. But I keep looking at that tiny little crater on the southern rim of Victoria. And I can't help but be reminded of who married "Miss Vicky" on the Tonight Show back in the 70's. Tiny Tim! Wouldn't that make a great name?

David

[ElkGroveDan]

But I keep looking at that tiny little crater on the southern rim of Victoria.

Yeah that has caught my eye too. It reminds me of the one they called "Rimshot" at the Pathfinder site.

My most painful recollection of a rimshot was in Game 7 of the 2002 NBA (basketball) Western Conference finals- Sacramento and Los Angeles were tied 3 games a piece. I was there, the place was going wild. The game was tied at the closing buzzer and Sacramento's Doug Christie lofted a shot from center court that would have decided the season. It hit the rim, paused, and rolled out. (Sacramento later lost in overtime).

For that memory, they should call that crater Doug Christie (keep in mind, JPL is in Los Angeles, so they would consider it a fond memory).

Anyone else?

[climber]

What I also like in this "new" topic is that we don't even doubt that Oppy will get there and that we don't even mind when
go UMSF'ers go
thanks Stu

[Stu]

Without a sophisticated 3D CAD package to make me a model of Victoria with, I went back to basics...

3D Victoria model

Not exactly Industrial Light and Magic, I know, and absolutely no use at all as a serious research tool, I just fancied having a model of the real thing to look at when Oppy reaches it in July. And it does make it seem kinda more real when you see it...

[antoniseb]

I know, and absolutely no use at all as a serious research tool, I just fancied having a model of the real thing to look at when Oppy reaches it in July. And it does make it seem kinda more real when you see it...

You were lucky to find something bowl-shaped as a starting point.

[Bill Harris]

3D Victoria Model

That looks good, although my first impression was "Mr Bill Crater" Ohh Nooo!!!....

--Bill

[Shaka]

3D Victoria model

Kewl. Can you prepare an anaglyph?
P.S. Do your kids know you stole their modelling clay?

[imipak]

Whew! I'm not nearly as worried about the apparent steepness of Victoria's walls...if you look at the 3d image of Endurance it looks like a monsterous drop too, but we all know what it was really like. Check out the attachment of Victoria side by side with Endurance.

I must be getting pessimistic in my old age, because I just can't see any way into Victoria. The most "nearly" point must be just south of the prominent feature at around 4 o'clock, but even there the break in the upper 'crust' appears (to my ignorant eyes) to be perhaps half the entire depth of Endurance. Even if the sand 'ramp' is firm enough to support Oppy, and the angle is sufficiently shallow for Oppy to negotiate, how could she safely navigate the highest outcrop? I'd love to be proved wrong by events about this, as well as the arrival date...

How thick IS that layer, anyway? It must be a couple of meters at the very least.

Of course I'm speculating wildly... the resolution in those images must be a couple of meters at least, impossible to see how smooth or steep the slopes are at rover-scale.

[djellison]

Err - that IS an anaglyph.

Doug

[Shaka]

Aha! That explains the multicolored modelling clay! O.K. I've looked now with my anaglyph glasses, but to accurately assess the model I'll need some critical statistics: Is it a soup bowl or a pasta plate? It's important!

[djellison]

Found the source of my tender-to-endurance-brain-fart...

The crater just north of the 'speed record' drive is called James Caird - and that WAS one of tenders to the Endurance, the one in which Shackleton et.al. set out to get help for the rest of the crew.

For those that have not - get, beg, steel, buy, borrow a copy of Channel 4's dramatisation of 'Shackleton' with Ken "3 hour long Hamlet" Brannagh...excellent all round

Doug

[Pando]

3D Victoria model

Now THAT's obsession...!

Reminds me of Close Encounters of the Third Kind where the folks were frantically modeling the Devil's Tower...

[edstrick]

Actually, I was wondering if this was the Aardman Animation version of Victoria crater.

More cheese, Gromit?

[AndyG]

The crater just north of the 'speed record' drive is called James Caird - and that WAS one of tenders to the Endurance, the one in which Shackleton et.al. set out to get help for the rest of the crew.

For those that have not - get, beg, steel, buy, borrow a copy of Channel 4's dramatisation of 'Shackleton' with Ken "3 hour long Hamlet" Brannagh...excellent all round

Totally agree, Doug. Quite off-topic, the James Caird is still in existence at Dulwich College in London, and is well-worth seeing. This 23-foot boat was sailed 1300 kilometres across the worst seas in the world, during an Antarctic winter, to allow Shackleton and three others to raise the alarm and promote a rescue of the other survivors of the wreck of the Endurance. A shame that the full story of this polar expedition was all-but buried during the Great War: but a fantastic achievement of human tenacity and skill in (blimey) a non-GPS/satellite telephone world.

...And now back to our regular channel of more modern exploration!

Andy G

[Stu]

Aha! That explains the multicolored modelling clay! O.K. I've looked now with my anaglyph glasses, but to accurately assess the model I'll need some critical statistics: Is it a soup bowl or a pasta plate? It's important!

Don't worry Shaka, no childrens' modelling clay was used or stolen in the preparation of the model - it was actually not modelling clay, but that "blu-tac" sticky stuff you use to put up posters with... dimension wise it's a humble cereal bowl, nothing as fancy as a pasta plate. It's probably too deep to be honest, but all the others I had in the cupboard had designs on them, and as hard as I look at the MGS images I can't see sheepdogs, bramble hedges or cute little puppies on Victoria's floor...

And Pando, you're right, there I was in my front room, surrounded by twigs, dirt and bits of fence, having failed to recreate Victoria with a bin lid. A cereal bowl seemed the only alternative as I knelt there saying "This is important.... this is important...!"

Seriously tho, making that model made Victoria seem much more real somehow, and although they aren't good enough to share because of the sheer inaccuracy of the features, I had great fun taking pics from different points around the rim and "looking" at the view over to the other side. I guess it's all to do with us human beings having more of a connection with something physical than a picture...

[SkyeLab]

Brilliant Crater Stu,

Now I know what to do with the millions of ash trays that will be redundant when the UK-wide smoking-in-public-places ban comes into force next year............

Brian

[Pando]

Speaking of obsession, here's a quick and dirty animation I made...

Attached File(s)

 Crater.wmv ( 255.5K ) Number of downloads: 713

 

[Bob Shaw]

Great!

But, are we *really* sure it's an impact crater at all? Those edgy things look so like... ...teeth. How big can a Sarlac actually get? Stay away, wittle Wover, stay awa-a-a-a-ay!

Bob Shaw

[MichaelT]

You could be right

According to this Wikipedia article [...] there are apparently other Sarlaccs on Tatooine and other planets [...]!

And [...] no one has taken the time to study this dangerous creature [...]. So who knows, probably they grow that big?


Michael

[climber]

Back on "VC features", I'm not quite sure that dunes insides VC get the same orientations as the one in Endurance. Is that true ? Does it means that dunes' orientation is related to wind direction at Meridiani or is it more crater's shape related ?
Thanks
Climber

[RNeuhaus]

[quote name='climber' -Quote removed - un-needed when replying to it.....
[/quote]

The ridges at the bottom of VC are of the Network type: Networked ridges in troughs on Mars tend to form in local topographic lows and areas of secondary flow circulation. They are closely spaced and appear to be smaller than the other ridge types. See the
following picture



Rodolfo

[Stu]

Hey Pando,

How did you get your cereal bowl to spin around so quickly without flying off the table?

That's excellent, thanks very much for letting us see that.

[Pando]

Several people told me they couldn't view WMV file (Mac users) so here's an MPG of the animation I posted earlier...

Oh, and Stu, I nailed the center vertex down tight...

Attached File(s)

 Crater.mpg ( 728.07K ) Number of downloads: 521

 

[Stu]

VERY nice Pando... with all theser simulations, renderings and anaglyphs, Victoria's become a real place now, hasn't it?

Can't wait for our first real view of it!

[Joffan]

Any ideas what this distinctive light protuberance on Victoria's rim is? It's still too far to discern any shape really but my human tendency for pattern seeking is trying to tell me it's a pyramid.

From the latest pancam in Victora's direction - with no stretch:


(the light speck right on the horizon)

[Joffan]

A cross-eyed stereogram of the feature (brightness and contrast slightly mismatched, sorry):