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ITAR and Secrecy
PhilHorzempa
post Apr 17 2006, 04:57 PM
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I thought that it was about time that we start to discuss one of the most
important, yet most often ingored, factors affecting Unmanned Spaceflight,
namely ITAR. From what I have noted ITAR (International Traffic and Arms
Reduction) regulations threaten to disrupt most Space Science missions.
Supposedly, ITAR was initiated to stop the flow of info to other nations that
would enable them to improve their development of arms. However, its tentacles
have now reached into Space Science and UMSF in many ways.
I want to hear from members of the UMSF community about ways that ITAR
has adversely affected a project. I also want the UMSF community to discuss
whether ITAR has become a bureacratic nightmare with no positive effects.
One aspect of ITAR that disturbs me is the cover it can provide to those that
wish to cloak their goof-ups in SECRECY. The most recent example is NASA's
announcement last week that they would not release the Mishap Report for
DART. Another example came a couple of years ago when NASA released the
CONTOUR Mishap Report with major sections blacked-out, supposedly because
of ITAR concerns.

Another Phil
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djellison
post May 9 2006, 08:56 AM
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I posted on TPS's Members forum in response to someone basically asking what the hell ITAR was and why we should care - I replied...

Well - I don't know the specifics of ITAR, but as I understand it, it's an array of rules dictated by legislation intended to prevent foreign countries aquiring advanced military technology or hardware from US manufacturers. One can understand the motive and justification for such laws given the global military climate...however...

The problem is, the legislation gets in the way of totally innocent 'civilian' activities, things outside the scope of the military. For instance, the legislation makes it very hard for the people working on a Canadian instrument aboard the 2007 Phoenix Mars Lander to get the information they need to control their instrument from the spacecrafts computer...i.e. the hardware and technology of the spacecraft is under the remit of ITAR regulation - so they spacecraft engineers can't share information about how it works and how to use it to the Canadian team who want to do nothing more sinister than control their instrument.

If you search for ITAR on Deborah's blog about Phoenix, you'll see first hand information about this.
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/features/we...eborah_bass.php

So - what does all this mean? Well, why would foreign engineers and scientists want to get involved with US led missions when this legislation makes it so hard to trade the information they need to cooperate? If ITAR had been in place in the late '80s and early '90s, it would be hard to imagine the Cassini Huygens cooperation ever being possible, or even more simple projects like Ulysses or SOHO. ITAR legislation needs to be modified to allow information for projects like these to me traded without limitation. It's easy to see why the advanced technology of spacecraft might be considered to be of a 'military' type - but sometimes panic-legislation can be too broad and unspecific for it's actual requirements, as is the case here.

The irony is, of course, that those who want to trade in military hardware for malicous purposes will do so despite any legislation that might be created.


Doug
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Posts in this topic
- PhilHorzempa   ITAR and Secrecy   Apr 17 2006, 04:57 PM
- - Bob Shaw   Another Phil: Yup. It certainly seems to be an ef...   Apr 17 2006, 05:05 PM
- - The Messenger   I have been told that the engineering data, relati...   Apr 17 2006, 05:16 PM
- - djellison   VEX isn't under ITAR though - ITAR is a US reg...   Apr 17 2006, 05:52 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (djellison @ Apr 17 2006, 06:52 PM)...   Apr 17 2006, 05:57 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (djellison @ Apr 17 2006, 11:52 AM)...   Apr 17 2006, 06:06 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Apr 17 2006, 07:06...   Apr 17 2006, 06:50 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   [size=2] A few more thoughts on ITAR. First...   Apr 17 2006, 07:53 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (PhilHorzempa @ Apr 17 2006, 01:53 ...   Apr 17 2006, 08:33 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (PhilHorzempa @ Apr 17 2006, 07:53 ...   May 11 2006, 02:12 AM
- - The Messenger   ...Another time we had a reason to contract a cert...   Apr 18 2006, 02:29 AM
- - DDAVIS   [quote name='PhilHorzempa' date='Apr 1...   Apr 19 2006, 08:51 AM
- - edstrick   I saw what must be a particularly idiotic effect o...   Apr 19 2006, 09:54 AM
- - djellison   LOL - I've seen the same program here in the U...   Apr 19 2006, 09:59 AM
- - edstrick   To quote King Richard Milhouse the First: ...   Apr 19 2006, 10:57 AM
- - The Messenger   The worst problem we have run into that I am aware...   Apr 19 2006, 02:54 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Apr 19 2006, 02:54...   May 9 2006, 11:45 AM
- - djellison   For the member who decided to private message me s...   Apr 19 2006, 07:29 PM
- - Analyst   I have just read Emily's report about the OPAC...   May 9 2006, 08:11 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (Analyst @ May 9 2006, 08:11 AM) I ...   May 9 2006, 09:18 AM
||- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Stephen @ May 9 2006, 03:18 AM) Ir...   May 9 2006, 01:31 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Analyst @ May 9 2006, 01:11 AM) Do...   May 9 2006, 01:47 PM
|- - Borek   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ May 9 2006, 01:47 PM)...   May 12 2006, 09:41 AM
- - djellison   I posted on TPS's Members forum in response to...   May 9 2006, 08:56 AM
- - Analyst   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ May 9 2006, 01:47 PM)...   May 9 2006, 02:34 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Analyst @ May 9 2006, 07:34 AM) Co...   May 9 2006, 03:17 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   International projects are created for political p...   May 9 2006, 05:30 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ May 9 2006, 03:17 PM)...   May 10 2006, 01:45 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   mcaplinger, I think we don't need to discuss h...   May 9 2006, 06:16 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ May 9 2006, 11:1...   May 9 2006, 07:59 PM
|- - helvick   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ May 9 2006, 08:59 PM)...   May 9 2006, 09:09 PM
- - RNeuhaus   My view, ITAR is the source of many complications,...   May 10 2006, 03:06 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   From my personnal experience as working in a subco...   May 10 2006, 07:57 AM
- - Analyst   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ May 9 2006, 03:17 PM)...   May 10 2006, 08:23 AM
- - The Messenger   While it is certainly easier and possibly cheaper ...   May 10 2006, 01:47 PM
- - elakdawalla   One thing that's both a benefit and a curse ab...   May 10 2006, 08:55 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ May 10 2006, 01:55 P...   May 11 2006, 08:28 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 11 2006, 08:28 ...   May 12 2006, 06:54 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Stephen @ May 11 2006, 11:54 PM) D...   May 12 2006, 12:28 PM
|- - Borek   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 12 2006, 12:28 ...   May 12 2006, 12:45 PM
- - djellison   There is already an international agreement that l...   May 11 2006, 09:04 PM
- - Analyst   If I look at the Apollo spike I wonder how Mr. Gri...   May 12 2006, 09:19 AM
- - djellison   This is the problem isnt it "Go to the moon ...   May 12 2006, 11:32 AM
- - PhilCo126   Lots of 'negative' comments on the ISS her...   May 12 2006, 08:13 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (PhilCo126 @ May 12 2006, 01:13 PM)...   May 12 2006, 09:08 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 12 2006, 10:08 ...   May 12 2006, 10:49 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 12 2006, 09:08 ...   May 15 2006, 01:02 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Stephen @ May 14 2006, 06:02 PM) P...   May 15 2006, 03:35 AM
||- - Stephen   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 15 2006, 03:35 ...   May 15 2006, 12:04 PM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Stephen @ May 15 2006, 05:04 AM) F...   May 15 2006, 02:36 PM
||- - Stephen   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 15 2006, 02:36 ...   May 18 2006, 08:13 AM
||- - helvick   QUOTE (Stephen @ May 18 2006, 09:13 AM) B...   May 18 2006, 12:02 PM
||- - Stephen   QUOTE (helvick @ May 18 2006, 12:02 PM) S...   May 19 2006, 01:41 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (Stephen @ May 15 2006, 01:02 AM) P...   May 15 2006, 05:58 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ May 15 2006, 05...   May 15 2006, 02:06 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (Stephen @ May 15 2006, 10:06 AM) T...   May 15 2006, 03:29 PM
- - remcook   http://www.spacetoday.org/SolSys/Moons/The.../Moon...   May 13 2006, 12:42 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (remcook @ May 13 2006, 05:42 AM) h...   May 13 2006, 12:53 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 13 2006, 06:53 ...   May 14 2006, 07:07 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   I am by no means certain that -- even when mass hu...   May 18 2006, 11:14 AM
- - PhilHorzempa   Just to get us back on to the subject of ITAR, her...   May 19 2006, 05:00 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (PhilHorzempa @ May 19 2006, 05:00 ...   May 19 2006, 07:19 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Stephen @ May 19 2006, 12:19 AM) J...   May 19 2006, 02:26 PM
- - dvandorn   Hmmm.... the FOIA defines areas in which "com...   May 20 2006, 03:08 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (dvandorn @ May 20 2006, 08:08 AM) ...   May 20 2006, 08:05 PM
- - Analyst   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 20 2006, 08:05 ...   May 21 2006, 08:04 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Analyst @ May 21 2006, 01:04 AM) N...   May 21 2006, 02:54 PM
||- - The Messenger   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 21 2006, 08:54 ...   May 21 2006, 04:35 PM
|- - tty   QUOTE (Analyst @ May 21 2006, 10:04 AM) t...   May 21 2006, 04:17 PM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (Analyst @ May 21 2006, 03:04 AM) R...   May 21 2006, 06:07 PM
|- - tty   QUOTE (dvandorn @ May 21 2006, 08:07 PM) ...   May 21 2006, 07:05 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (tty @ May 21 2006, 12:05 PM) It is...   May 21 2006, 09:43 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 21 2006, 03:43 ...   May 22 2006, 06:02 PM
- - ljk4-1   I have to add that Sakharov also had other, much l...   May 21 2006, 11:07 PM
- - edstrick   "...Note also that the Russians sent their Na...   May 22 2006, 08:09 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (edstrick @ May 22 2006, 04:09 AM) ...   May 22 2006, 02:39 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ May 22 2006, 07:39 A...   May 22 2006, 06:57 PM
||- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 22 2006, 02:57 ...   May 23 2006, 12:14 AM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ May 22 2006, 05:14 P...   May 23 2006, 12:25 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ May 22 2006, 03:39 P...   May 23 2006, 11:06 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (ugordan @ May 23 2006, 12:06 PM) I...   May 23 2006, 12:53 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 23 2006, 05:53 AM) ...   May 23 2006, 03:58 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   many groups... In France there was the strange st...   May 23 2006, 06:31 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   I've heard speculation that John von Neumann w...   May 23 2006, 02:07 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 22 2006, 07:07 P...   May 23 2006, 06:04 AM
|- - tty   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 23 2006, 04:07 A...   May 23 2006, 08:09 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   Believing that the ennemies are too dumb to find w...   May 23 2006, 09:46 AM
- - edstrick   Regarding Dr. Strangelove and his gloved hand: Re...   May 23 2006, 11:11 AM
- - PhilHorzempa   Now, back to the topic of ITAR. Recently, I saw t...   Jun 8 2006, 02:05 AM
- - DonPMitchell   I've noticed that the rocket-cam videos also h...   Jun 8 2006, 03:42 AM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 7 2006, 11:42 P...   Jun 8 2006, 03:45 AM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Jun 7 2006, 08...   Jun 8 2006, 05:01 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 7 2006, 09:42 P...   Aug 3 2006, 08:32 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Aug 3 2006, 04:32 ...   Aug 4 2006, 12:47 AM
|- - helvick   QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Aug 4 2006, 01...   Aug 4 2006, 12:32 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (helvick @ Aug 4 2006, 08:32 AM) Ji...   Aug 4 2006, 12:57 PM
- - Analyst   I saw this docu too. Very strange. Has it been Boe...   Jun 8 2006, 07:01 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Analyst @ Jun 8 2006, 12:01 AM) I ...   Jun 8 2006, 07:21 AM
- - Analyst   I always thougt the rocketcam "edits" ar...   Aug 4 2006, 12:43 PM
- - djellison   I would have thought that as well - you can get qu...   Aug 4 2006, 12:46 PM


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