[X] My Assistant

[Guest_DonPMitchell_*]

Yes it's a Black Arrow, developped by the Royal Aircraft Establishment.

Four flights :
- 2 failures
- 2 success (only the last one was orbital). The UK became the sixth nation to place a satellite into orbit (after the USSR, USA, France, Japan and China).

The last flight took place in 71, two weeks before my birth

Interesting. And the 7th and 8th space powers were India and Israel. The Ukraine is a space power, inheriting a chunk of the Soviet program. Is that it, are there only 9 nations that can launch a rocket into orbit?

[Bob Shaw]

Interesting. And the 7th and 8th space powers were India and Israel. The Ukraine is a space power, inheriting a chunk of the Soviet program. Is that it, are there only 9 nations that can launch a rocket into orbit?

Don:

Them, and the Tripoli Rocket guys, if anyone lets them...

...oh, and ESA, Arianespace, SeaLaunch...

...and a bunch of other guys. Nations, though, are old hat...

Bob Shaw

[Guest_DonPMitchell_*]

Don:

Them, and the Tripoli Rocket guys, if anyone lets them...

...oh, and ESA, Arianespace, SeaLaunch...

...and a bunch of other guys. Nations, though, are old hat...

Bob Shaw

Good points. Multi-national corporations like SeaLaunch certainly blur the line. I'd count "ESA" and "Arianespace" (and SEP) as the same thing -- an outgrowth of the French space program, but lots of nations contributing now.

Who are the "bunch of other guys" who can put things into orbit?

[Bob Shaw]

Good points. Multi-national corporations like SeaLaunch certainly blur the line. I'd count "ESA" and "Arianespace" (and SEP) as the same thing -- an outgrowth of the French space program, but lots of nations contributing now.

Who are the "bunch of other guys" who can put things into orbit?

Don:

Apart from Mr Musk, there are a number of rocketry wannabees out there - granted, most are strictly suborbital so far. But give them time...

Bob Shaw

[Guest_DonPMitchell_*]

Don:

Apart from Mr Musk, there are a number of rocketry wannabees out there - granted, most are strictly suborbital so far. But give them time...

Bob Shaw

True, but suborbital is trivial, even the V-2 went into space in that sense. Going into orbit means you need a rocket that can execute a pitch-control program, which is generally very precisely designed to get you out of the atmosphere and still impart the necessary horizontal velocity. Doesn't have to be a flight computer, Sputnik's pitch control was defined by a shaped cog. But it still is not a trivial task.

Hey, give us a rocket to guess at! :-)

[David]

True, but suborbital is trivial, even the V-2 went into space in that sense. Going into orbit means you need a rocket that can execute a pitch-control program, which is generally very precisely designed to get you out of the atmosphere and still impart the necessary horizontal velocity. Doesn't have to be a flight computer, Sputnik's pitch control was defined by a shaped cog. But it still is not a trivial task.

Which brings a question to mind, sort of a minor variation on the mythical "lost cosmonaut" theme -- were there any failed Soviet attempts to launch a satellite into orbit prior to Sputnik 1, or did they happen to get it right on the first try? Given the overall trial-and-error approach of the Soviet program, one would sort of expect there to have been Sputniks -3, -2, -1 and 0 all of which never left the launch pad or exploded in flight -- but even the Soviets get to be lucky once in a while, I suppose.

[Bob Shaw]

This should be easy for you lot!

Bob Shaw

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[ugordan]

but even the Soviets get to be lucky once in a while

I don't believe actual soviet rocket engineers and scientists would like hearing this statement very much. You can hardly downplay the accomplishment by calling it luck instead of know-how.
The soviet trial-and-error approach you mention was probably no worse than the american one, anyway.

This should be easy for you lot!

Bob: the image's kinda blurry, isn't it!

[Bob Shaw]

Going into orbit means you need a rocket that can execute a pitch-control program, which is generally very precisely designed to get you out of the atmosphere and still impart the necessary horizontal velocity. Doesn't have to be a flight computer, Sputnik's pitch control was defined by a shaped cog. But it still is not a trivial task.

Don:

I bet there's some space-wannabees out there with enough cash to build that cog!

Bob Shaw

[Guest_DonPMitchell_*]

Which brings a question to mind, sort of a minor variation on the mythical "lost cosmonaut" theme -- were there any failed Soviet attempts to launch a satellite into orbit prior to Sputnik 1, or did they happen to get it right on the first try? Given the overall trial-and-error approach of the Soviet program, one would sort of expect there to have been Sputniks -3, -2, -1 and 0 all of which never left the launch pad or exploded in flight -- but even the Soviets get to be lucky once in a while, I suppose.

The first launch attempts for the R-7 were in 1957-58, as follows:

May 15 - ICBM launch failure

June 11 - ICBM scrubbed launch

July 12 - ICBM launch failure

August 21 - ICBM successful flight

September 7 - ICBM successful flight

October 4 - Sputnik-1 orbited

November 3 - Sptunik-2 orbited

January 29 - ICBM launch failure

March 29 - ICBM successful test

April 4 - ICBM successful test (from Plesetsk)

April 27 - Sputnik-3 launch failure

May 15 - Sputnik-3 orbited

Overall, not bad performance for a new rocket of unprecidented size. Keep in mind, the R-7 was vastly more powerful and complex than the Atlas and Juno rockets in America.

[Bob Shaw]

Bob: the image's kinda blurry, isn't it!

Ugordan:

Put *your* glasses on, and give your wife *her* glasses back, you fule!

Bob Shaw

[Rakhir]

This should be easy for you lot!

Bob Shaw

It's a PSLV.

Edit : here is the image without blur.



-- Rakhir

[Guest_DonPMitchell_*]

It's a PSLV.

India's rocket. I hadn't looked into that one. All solid fuel first stages. Yeow. So I guess that will not be man rated, the maximum acceleration must be crazy.

The upper stages are Viking engines, from the early Ariane -- gas generator cycle, UDMH/N2O4 -- Russian technology shared with the French, but not their most sophisticated staged-combustion know-how.

That reminds me, I was surprised to discover that the Vulcain (Ariane V) engine is just a gas-generator-cycle engine. I thought it was derived from SSME, but it is much older technology. I guess I was thinking that Boelkow built the Ariane V engines, and I thought they knew how to build staged combustion.

[Bob Shaw]

It's a PSLV.

Edit : here is the image without blur.
-- Rakhir

Rakhir:

100% correct. The poor quality was because it was actually an enlargement - I cropped it to make the scale slightly confusing, and didn't want the lightning protection towers to be visible.

We await your probably-equally-devious response!

Bob Shaw

[David]

I don't believe actual soviet rocket engineers and scientists would like hearing this statement very much. You can hardly downplay the accomplishment by calling it luck instead of know-how.

I don't mean to downplay the singular accomplishment of Sputnik at all; I was merely alluding to the bad luck which plagued some elements of the later Soviet space program, and which can in part be attributed to bureaucratic pressure to hurry up with launches despite inadequate testing.

The soviet trial-and-error approach you mention was probably no worse than the american one, anyway.

For the period in question, you are certainly right. Most new rockets had a distressing tendency to explode, or fail in other, less spectacular fashions. The nascent U.S. space program had some signal failures in this line, notably with Project Vanguard. But these were public failures (and probably contributed to NASA's later caution) whereas a good deal of the Soviet program was secret and is sometimes still difficult to find information on, though not as much as in the past. One wouldn't expect to hear too much about a failed orbital launch, if there had been one. It's nice to know that the first shot went as planned.