Venus Atmosphere Puzzle, one man's struggle with atmospheric physics |
Venus Atmosphere Puzzle, one man's struggle with atmospheric physics |
Jun 5 2006, 12:15 PM
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Junior Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 13-February 06 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 679 |
Hi All
This might seem like a really dumb question, but what's the mass of the Cytherean atmosphere per unit area? At first pass I thought it was easy - same as for an isothermal atmosphere, Po/g, where Po is surface pressure and g is surface gravity. Simple. Except Venus doesn't come close to approximating an isothermal atmosphere. From a graph in Mark Bullock's PhD thesis (Hi Mark if you're visiting) I pulled the figures for Po and To as 92 bar and 735 K, while the left-side of the temperature curve was 250 K at 0.1 bar and 63 km. At about 210 K the temperature drop with altitude stops, then slowly rises into the Cytherean stratosphere. Ok. My atmospheric physics is pretty limited - I 'modelled' that lapse rate pressure curve as a power law: P/Po = (T/To)^n and likewise for density, d/do = (T/To)^n. Temperature, T, as a function of altitude, Z, I computed as T(Z) = To*(1-Z/(n.Zo)). Zo = (k.T/m.g), where k is Boltzmann's constant and m is the molecular mass of the atmosphere. These equations I then integrated between 210 K and 0.033 bar, 70 km, and 735 K and 92 bar, zero altitude. The resulting equation is m = (n/(n+1))*(do.Zo)*(1 - (T/To))^(n+1) - a bit of simple algebra and the Gas equation shows that do.Zo = Po/g. Thus the mass is lower than for a simple isothermal atmosphere by roughly (n/(n+1)). In this case n = 6.33, higher than the dry adiabat for CO2 which gives n = 4.45. Now an adiabatic or polytropic atmosphere is an idealisation, but it seems odd to me that whenever Venus' atmospheric mass is discussed people always use the higher isothermal value. Have I missed something important in the physics, or is Venus's atmospheric mass just 86.4% of the usually quoted value? |
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Jun 6 2006, 11:37 AM
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2930 Joined: 4-November 05 From: North Wales Member No.: 542 |
In an atmosphere in which temperature decreases rapidly with height for the first few scale heights the upper parts will not be as high above the surface as they would be in the isothermal case. This means they will experience greater g and hence contribute more to the pressure at the surface. More pressure for the same mass = less mass for the same pressure.
I like to imagine two simplistic pictures - One is the thin atmosphere approximation where all the atmospheric mass is assumed to be just above the surface. Two is the isothermal case. Venus should be somewhere in between. |
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qraal Venus Atmosphere Puzzle Jun 5 2006, 12:15 PM
remcook QUOTE do.Zo = Po/g
This is the equation for hydro... Jun 5 2006, 02:15 PM
qraal Hi rem
That's exactly what I did and I still ... Jun 5 2006, 11:45 PM
The Messenger QUOTE (qraal @ Jun 5 2006, 05:45 PM) That... Jun 9 2006, 01:57 PM
qraal Hi ngunn
Thanks for the reply. You know I wondere... Jun 7 2006, 12:14 PM
ngunn Well you've done the detailed calculations, no... Jun 7 2006, 12:46 PM
qraal Hi ngunn
I've read it before, but replicated ... Jun 9 2006, 12:43 PM
Phil Stooke There's some great Venus atmosphere stuff (and... Jun 7 2006, 01:50 PM
DonPMitchell QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jun 7 2006, 06:50 AM... Jun 7 2006, 08:33 PM
ngunn Very interesting, and I follow the reasoning you g... Jun 9 2006, 12:57 PM
ngunn Hi graal. I think that the messenger's messag... Jun 10 2006, 10:39 AM
qraal Hi Nigel
Ok. Let's try again. Everything you... Jun 10 2006, 12:34 PM
ngunn Fine. I agree the adiabatic model is probably a b... Jun 12 2006, 11:23 AM
The Messenger QUOTE (ngunn @ Jun 12 2006, 05:23 AM) Fin... Jun 12 2006, 08:56 PM
ngunn Hi Messenger. You found my post confusing??!... Jun 14 2006, 09:04 AM
remcook just a note: Titan's temperature does vary sig... Jun 14 2006, 11:36 AM
qraal Hi All
Well I decided to do a numerical experimen... Jun 23 2006, 12:42 PM
The Messenger [quote name='qraal' date='Jun 23 2006,... Jun 23 2006, 04:44 PM
qraal Hi again
And the average temperature is 630 K.
H... Jun 23 2006, 01:11 PM
ngunn QUOTE (qraal @ Jun 23 2006, 02:11 PM) Hmm... Jun 23 2006, 01:51 PM
qraal Hi Messenger & ngunn
Hey thanks for the nice ... Jun 25 2006, 12:50 AM
RNeuhaus Venus' Double Vortex Confirmed in New Animatio... Jun 27 2006, 10:21 PM
DonPMitchell At last, some pictures from VEX. These are fascin... Jun 28 2006, 01:33 AM

qraal Thanks Don
Man that's so bizarre.
Venus is a... Jun 28 2006, 10:21 AM

qraal Hi All
Updated the gravity - now it's a linea... Jun 30 2006, 02:11 PM
JRehling QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 27 2006, 03:21 PM) ... Jul 3 2006, 10:02 PM
edstrick The soviet venus descent probes measured light lev... Jul 1 2006, 07:43 AM
qraal Hi ed
Thanks for the heads up on that reference, ... Jul 1 2006, 12:38 PM
edstrick The Univ of Arizona has had a method of producing ... Jul 2 2006, 08:41 AM
DonPMitchell The U of Arizona books are essential. There are a... Jul 2 2006, 05:56 PM
qraal Hi Don
Hey thanks for the insights - Venus is tru... Jul 2 2006, 11:47 PM
rlorenz QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 2 2006, 01:56 P... Jul 13 2007, 12:08 PM
DonPMitchell That is a mystery. Many believe there are no crys... Jul 3 2006, 01:01 AM
qraal Hi Don
The exobiological theory is the most excit... Jul 3 2006, 08:52 AM
edstrick The Pioneer Large Probe Cloud Particle Size Spectr... Jul 3 2006, 09:18 AM
DonPMitchell Vega-1 and Vega-2 performed similar experiments. ... Jul 3 2006, 04:16 PM
qraal Thanks Don & Ed
More data to cram into my bra... Jul 4 2006, 01:16 AM
DonPMitchell Planetary circulation is fascinating. Rotating pa... Jul 4 2006, 01:26 AM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 4 2006, 02:26 A... Jul 4 2006, 02:31 PM
MichaelT QUOTE (qraal @ Jun 5 2006, 12:15 PM) Hi A... Jul 4 2006, 09:25 AM
ngunn QUOTE (MichaelT @ Jul 4 2006, 10:25 AM) I... Jul 4 2006, 03:51 PM
MichaelT QUOTE (ngunn @ Jul 4 2006, 03:51 PM) meas... Jul 4 2006, 04:40 PM
The Messenger QUOTE (MichaelT @ Jul 4 2006, 10:40 AM) O... Jul 4 2006, 07:22 PM
edstrick I'd forgotten the instruments on the Vega prob... Jul 4 2006, 10:17 AM
ngunn Which is what I still don't understand (or bel... Jul 5 2006, 09:19 AM
qraal Hi ngunn
For the first 200 km of altitude Venus... Jul 5 2006, 11:18 AM
ngunn Ah! qraal with a Q - my apologies. It's th... Jul 5 2006, 01:08 PM
qraal Hi ngunn & MichaelT
As you might've guess... Jul 5 2006, 10:32 PM
MichaelT QUOTE (qraal @ Jul 5 2006, 10:32 PM) If s... Jul 6 2006, 06:27 PM
qraal Hi Michael
There's quite a lot of literature,... Jul 10 2006, 07:56 AM
DonPMitchell You're looking at Mark Bullock's thesis I ... Jul 5 2006, 10:49 PM
ljk4-1 Venus Atmosphere Profile from a Maximum Entropy Pr... Sep 26 2006, 02:36 PM
rlorenz QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Sep 26 2006, 10:36 A... Jul 13 2007, 12:16 PM
qraal Hi All
I haven't bothered with this for some ... Jul 12 2007, 11:05 PM
edstrick "....Sadly, it isnt cheap..."
I'd sa... Jul 14 2007, 06:03 AM![]() ![]() |
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