Venus Atmosphere Puzzle, one man's struggle with atmospheric physics |
Venus Atmosphere Puzzle, one man's struggle with atmospheric physics |
Jun 5 2006, 12:15 PM
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Junior Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 13-February 06 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 679 |
Hi All
This might seem like a really dumb question, but what's the mass of the Cytherean atmosphere per unit area? At first pass I thought it was easy - same as for an isothermal atmosphere, Po/g, where Po is surface pressure and g is surface gravity. Simple. Except Venus doesn't come close to approximating an isothermal atmosphere. From a graph in Mark Bullock's PhD thesis (Hi Mark if you're visiting) I pulled the figures for Po and To as 92 bar and 735 K, while the left-side of the temperature curve was 250 K at 0.1 bar and 63 km. At about 210 K the temperature drop with altitude stops, then slowly rises into the Cytherean stratosphere. Ok. My atmospheric physics is pretty limited - I 'modelled' that lapse rate pressure curve as a power law: P/Po = (T/To)^n and likewise for density, d/do = (T/To)^n. Temperature, T, as a function of altitude, Z, I computed as T(Z) = To*(1-Z/(n.Zo)). Zo = (k.T/m.g), where k is Boltzmann's constant and m is the molecular mass of the atmosphere. These equations I then integrated between 210 K and 0.033 bar, 70 km, and 735 K and 92 bar, zero altitude. The resulting equation is m = (n/(n+1))*(do.Zo)*(1 - (T/To))^(n+1) - a bit of simple algebra and the Gas equation shows that do.Zo = Po/g. Thus the mass is lower than for a simple isothermal atmosphere by roughly (n/(n+1)). In this case n = 6.33, higher than the dry adiabat for CO2 which gives n = 4.45. Now an adiabatic or polytropic atmosphere is an idealisation, but it seems odd to me that whenever Venus' atmospheric mass is discussed people always use the higher isothermal value. Have I missed something important in the physics, or is Venus's atmospheric mass just 86.4% of the usually quoted value? |
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Jun 9 2006, 12:57 PM
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2930 Joined: 4-November 05 From: North Wales Member No.: 542 |
Very interesting, and I follow the reasoning you give but I still find the result surprising.
Consider the following thought experiment: 1/ Take one large solid globe, in vacuo. 2/ Release in it's vicinity finite amount of gas. 3/ Wait for the gas to form an atmosphere around the globe. 4/ Arrange for the atmosphere to be at a uniform temperature throughout. Question: At what point does the mass of this finite amount of gas jump to infinity? |
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qraal Venus Atmosphere Puzzle Jun 5 2006, 12:15 PM
remcook QUOTE do.Zo = Po/g
This is the equation for hydro... Jun 5 2006, 02:15 PM
qraal Hi rem
That's exactly what I did and I still ... Jun 5 2006, 11:45 PM
The Messenger QUOTE (qraal @ Jun 5 2006, 05:45 PM) That... Jun 9 2006, 01:57 PM
ngunn In an atmosphere in which temperature decreases ra... Jun 6 2006, 11:37 AM
qraal Hi ngunn
Thanks for the reply. You know I wondere... Jun 7 2006, 12:14 PM
ngunn Well you've done the detailed calculations, no... Jun 7 2006, 12:46 PM
qraal Hi ngunn
I've read it before, but replicated ... Jun 9 2006, 12:43 PM
Phil Stooke There's some great Venus atmosphere stuff (and... Jun 7 2006, 01:50 PM
DonPMitchell QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jun 7 2006, 06:50 AM... Jun 7 2006, 08:33 PM
ngunn Hi graal. I think that the messenger's messag... Jun 10 2006, 10:39 AM
qraal Hi Nigel
Ok. Let's try again. Everything you... Jun 10 2006, 12:34 PM
ngunn Fine. I agree the adiabatic model is probably a b... Jun 12 2006, 11:23 AM
The Messenger QUOTE (ngunn @ Jun 12 2006, 05:23 AM) Fin... Jun 12 2006, 08:56 PM
ngunn Hi Messenger. You found my post confusing??!... Jun 14 2006, 09:04 AM
remcook just a note: Titan's temperature does vary sig... Jun 14 2006, 11:36 AM
qraal Hi All
Well I decided to do a numerical experimen... Jun 23 2006, 12:42 PM
The Messenger [quote name='qraal' date='Jun 23 2006,... Jun 23 2006, 04:44 PM
qraal Hi again
And the average temperature is 630 K.
H... Jun 23 2006, 01:11 PM
ngunn QUOTE (qraal @ Jun 23 2006, 02:11 PM) Hmm... Jun 23 2006, 01:51 PM
qraal Hi Messenger & ngunn
Hey thanks for the nice ... Jun 25 2006, 12:50 AM
RNeuhaus Venus' Double Vortex Confirmed in New Animatio... Jun 27 2006, 10:21 PM
DonPMitchell At last, some pictures from VEX. These are fascin... Jun 28 2006, 01:33 AM

qraal Thanks Don
Man that's so bizarre.
Venus is a... Jun 28 2006, 10:21 AM

qraal Hi All
Updated the gravity - now it's a linea... Jun 30 2006, 02:11 PM
JRehling QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 27 2006, 03:21 PM) ... Jul 3 2006, 10:02 PM
edstrick The soviet venus descent probes measured light lev... Jul 1 2006, 07:43 AM
qraal Hi ed
Thanks for the heads up on that reference, ... Jul 1 2006, 12:38 PM
edstrick The Univ of Arizona has had a method of producing ... Jul 2 2006, 08:41 AM
DonPMitchell The U of Arizona books are essential. There are a... Jul 2 2006, 05:56 PM
qraal Hi Don
Hey thanks for the insights - Venus is tru... Jul 2 2006, 11:47 PM
rlorenz QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 2 2006, 01:56 P... Jul 13 2007, 12:08 PM
DonPMitchell That is a mystery. Many believe there are no crys... Jul 3 2006, 01:01 AM
qraal Hi Don
The exobiological theory is the most excit... Jul 3 2006, 08:52 AM
edstrick The Pioneer Large Probe Cloud Particle Size Spectr... Jul 3 2006, 09:18 AM
DonPMitchell Vega-1 and Vega-2 performed similar experiments. ... Jul 3 2006, 04:16 PM
qraal Thanks Don & Ed
More data to cram into my bra... Jul 4 2006, 01:16 AM
DonPMitchell Planetary circulation is fascinating. Rotating pa... Jul 4 2006, 01:26 AM
Bob Shaw QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 4 2006, 02:26 A... Jul 4 2006, 02:31 PM
MichaelT QUOTE (qraal @ Jun 5 2006, 12:15 PM) Hi A... Jul 4 2006, 09:25 AM
ngunn QUOTE (MichaelT @ Jul 4 2006, 10:25 AM) I... Jul 4 2006, 03:51 PM
MichaelT QUOTE (ngunn @ Jul 4 2006, 03:51 PM) meas... Jul 4 2006, 04:40 PM
The Messenger QUOTE (MichaelT @ Jul 4 2006, 10:40 AM) O... Jul 4 2006, 07:22 PM
edstrick I'd forgotten the instruments on the Vega prob... Jul 4 2006, 10:17 AM
ngunn Which is what I still don't understand (or bel... Jul 5 2006, 09:19 AM
qraal Hi ngunn
For the first 200 km of altitude Venus... Jul 5 2006, 11:18 AM
ngunn Ah! qraal with a Q - my apologies. It's th... Jul 5 2006, 01:08 PM
qraal Hi ngunn & MichaelT
As you might've guess... Jul 5 2006, 10:32 PM
MichaelT QUOTE (qraal @ Jul 5 2006, 10:32 PM) If s... Jul 6 2006, 06:27 PM
qraal Hi Michael
There's quite a lot of literature,... Jul 10 2006, 07:56 AM
DonPMitchell You're looking at Mark Bullock's thesis I ... Jul 5 2006, 10:49 PM
ljk4-1 Venus Atmosphere Profile from a Maximum Entropy Pr... Sep 26 2006, 02:36 PM
rlorenz QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Sep 26 2006, 10:36 A... Jul 13 2007, 12:16 PM
qraal Hi All
I haven't bothered with this for some ... Jul 12 2007, 11:05 PM
edstrick "....Sadly, it isnt cheap..."
I'd sa... Jul 14 2007, 06:03 AM![]() ![]() |
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