[X] My Assistant

[Aussie]

Hey, lets be fair guys. We have seen lots of journalistic licence and inaccuracies in JPL site updates and the Levin 'water puddle report' was released in a highly respected publication (to the subsequent chagrin of the editors). Before pointing fingers it is useful to see what the researchers really said and read the paper. http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2007JE002944.shtml

Hmm, submitted on 23 May 2007 and published on 13 November 2007. But the 'extravagant' claim hit the ESA site on 16th January 2008. Looks like a rush of blood to the head by the journalists to me so perhaps we could now ease up and give the researchers the credit they deserve for some of the findings.

[centsworth_II]

Before pointing fingers it is useful to see what the researchers really said and read the paper. http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2007JE002944.shtml

From the abstract: "This paper presents the first unambiguous observation of CO2 ice clouds on Mars."

Is this a lie? Have the Journal editors goofed by publishing it?

[Aussie]

Yeah I am probably out of date. But the last article I saw for Mars Global Surveyor (JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 112) indicated that while Mars equatorial mesospheric clouds had been detected using TES/MOC, The lack of detectable infrared radiances at MEM cloud heights precluded distinction of water versus CO2 ice. The authors also noted Mars Express observations pointing to CO2 clouds. A few Mariner 6 and 7 infrared spectrometer (IRS) limb scans showed a reflection spike attributed to CO2 clouds at around 25 km altitude with a low upper atmosphere temperature. But Viking data could not confirm the low temperatures and re-evaluation of data in the mid 90s attributed the results to either H2O ice contaminated CO2 clouds or surface CO2 ice deposits with H2O ice contamination. An ambiguous result.

The abstract noted that CO2 ice is known to appear as clouds and they are not claiming to have discovered clouds on Mars, or even to be the first to identify CO2 clouds. But the first unambiguous observation of CO2 ice clouds? Since this is the author's opinion it is quite reasonable to present it in the paper and it could well be an accurate statement.

[peter59]

Abstract (1998).
CO2 ice clouds in the upper atmosphere.
"We argue that the blue wave clouds imaged from the Pathfinder lander 35-100 minutes prior to sunrise on Sol 39 are evidence of such CO2 ice formation within the 60-100 km altitude region; and that the 4.3 micrometer CO2 lines of solar scattered flux, in Mariner 6 and 7 infrared limb spectra of Mars are a direct spectral identification of CO2 ice cloud formation in the dayside Mars mesosphere."

[MarsIsImportant]

"...Pathfinder lander 35-100 minutes prior to sunrise on Sol 39..." does not sound like a day time observation from above. So there is a difference in the data sets. And the Mariner 6 and 7 data was specifically addressed by the paper, so we don't need to go into that again.

[tedstryk]

"...Pathfinder lander 35-100 minutes prior to sunrise on Sol 39..." does not sound like a day time observation from above. So there is a difference in the data sets. And the Mariner 6 and 7 data was specifically addressed by the paper, so we don't need to go into that again.

That is such a nuanced difference, given that CO2 clouds were known, and the size measured by Mars Express was well within the upper limits. The Pathfinder data is also very relevant. The team indicates that they have found an unexpected phenomenon, not simply a phenomenon not yet observed in the day. At any rate, this discussion is becoming a moronic and a waste of time.

[ElkGroveDan]

At any rate, this discussion is becoming a moronic and a waste of time.

I was just thinking the same thing