[X] My Assistant

[gregp1962]

So, is the route map in reply #1822 the most current? I was thinking that that was yestersols map.


BTW, we all agree that 'sol' is pronounced like 'soul' or 'sole' and not 'saul'. (Being a latin derived word)

[helvick]

BTW, we all agree that 'sol' is pronounced like 'soul' or 'sole' and not 'saul'. (Being a latin derived word)

I thought it rhymed with doll myself.

[Phil Stooke]

"I thought it rhymed with doll myself."

That's how I say it. There's no need to go back to the original Latin pronunciation - this word has its roots in Latin, but it's basically an English word (invented during the Viking mission, presumably right at JPL... anyone know when it was first used and by whom?)

Phil

[Reckless]

That's how I say it too Sol rhymes with Doll and LOL
Roy F

[gregp1962]

If you say it like it rhymes with 'sole', you're saying a word that comes from the latin meaning "sun". If you say it like it rhymes with 'doll' you're saying a word that comes from the latin meaning "salt".

[David]

If you say it like it rhymes with 'sole', you're saying a word that comes from the latin meaning "sun". If you say it like it rhymes with 'doll' you're saying a word that comes from the latin meaning "salt".

There's a conventional set of pronunciations for Anglicized Latin, which allows Latin and Latin-derived words to be pronounced without unduly discommoding habitual English speakers. These pronunciations derive, through the medieval English pronunciation of Latin, from the early medieval French pronunciation of Latin, and ultimately from the way that high-register Latin would have been pronounced by the speakers of Gallic popular Latin in the 5th and 6th centuries. So it has a long and continuous pedigree that goes back to Latin itself, whereas the reconstructed scholarly pronunciation of Latin only goes back to the 16th century.

As a result, most English speakers will say Veenus instead of Waynoose, Marz instead of Marse, and Joopader insead of Yoop-peetair.

If, therefore, English speakers choose to pronounce "sol" like "doll" or "poll", and pronounce "sal" like the name of a gal, they may not pass muster with Latin teachers of the 21st century, but they will be part of a fine old tradition extending back more than 15 centuries.

[gregp1962]

This is a continuation of the discussion started in replies 1833 to 1839 in this thread. http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...681&st=1830

David, you bring an interesting point that I was not aware of. (reply 1838) To me, it does seem that, in modern English, a word that has it's roots from the latin 'sol' (sun) we have a typical pronounciation protocol. If we are saying an English word that has it's roots in the latin 'sal' (salt) it seems to consistently be pronounced differently.

English words derived from the latin word 'sol'...(sun) I believe that it is also the source of words referring to being alone or solo. (The sun is alone)

Solar
solo
solstice
solemnity

English words derived from 'sal' (salt)

Salad
saline


To me, it seems that, in modern English, if the word comes from the latin'sol' it is more commonly pronounced 'sole'. If we want to speak English as David claims they did in the 5th and 6th centuries, maybe we should pronounce the Martian day as though it rhymes with 'doll'. However, I would like David to post a recording of typical 5th century inhabitants of the English Isles speaking concerning issues like a solar eclipse.

[Aldebaran]

I don't think it matters too much exactly how you say it. The accepted pronunciation of a word is the one that is used most, regardless of derivation. There is also so much regional variation in phonetic values that it becomes academic anyway. For example John is pronounced with o like orange in the UK, and like Jahn in the US. Some usages that used to be grammatically correct will eventually die out, like the use of 'I will' as opposed to 'I shall' as an emphasis. Language is dynamic.

The point that was made about various Latin pronunciations is also correct. When I was taught Latin, vivat regina was pronounced vee-vat raygeenah (hard g), whereas in Tom Brown's Schooldays, it would have been vie-vat rejynah.

[Stephen]

There's no need to go back to the original Latin pronunciation - this word has its roots in Latin, but it's basically an English word (invented during the Viking mission, presumably right at JPL... anyone know when it was first used and by whom?)

Phil

"Sol" is a well-established byname in science fiction for the Sun (much as "Terra" is for the Earth). That, I suspect is where the Viking people got it from. The word itself doubtless comes from "solar" (much as "Terra" probably derives from "terrestrial", which can be used as both an adjective as well as a byname for the (human) inhabitants of Earth).

======
Stephen

[David]

The point that was made about various Latin pronunciations is also correct. When I was taught Latin, vivat regina was pronounced vee-vat raygeenah (hard g), whereas in Tom Brown's Schooldays, it would have been vie-vat rejynah.

In my Latin classes we said "wee-waht". Or we should have.

As this is one topic where I probably do not know less than the average UMSFer, I could go on in some detail about the nature of the Anglicized pronunciation, its history, and comparison with the revived classical Latin pronunciation, but I have a hard time justifying doing so on this forum!

With regard to "doll" and "dole", for some speakers the two are almost indistinguishable. "Doll" isn't universally pronounced "dahl" even in the United States. In my own dialect, there is a strong tendency to overround the o before a final l, e.g. in words like boll, knoll, roll, poll, toll, troll. I don't distinguish, in speaking, roll from role, or poll from pole. Doll however I pronounce to rhyme with haul, which is in my dialect (or perhaps in this case idiolect) distinct from both hall and hole. In general this spelling distinction cannot be trusted to map accurately to individual distinctions of pronunciation.

I have always imagined "sol" being pronounced like "sole", but I have no tremor at other pronunciations, within reasonable limits.

[mcaplinger]

I have always imagined "sol" being pronounced like "sole", but I have no tremor at other pronunciations, within reasonable limits.

FWIW, the majority of people at JPL seem to pronounce it "sahl" (kinda rhymes with "doll" I guess, or maybe it's closer to "saul".) I used to try to pronounce it "soul" but most people don't seem to say it that way.

[CosmicRocker]

I've always pronounced it as sôl, which approximately rhymes with saul and fall. It's sort of a compromise between a long and a short "O." When the word was coined, I naturally associated it with a common name of the sun, and pronounced it according to my perception of the modern pronunciation of that word. However it is supposed to be pronounced, I will likely not bother to change my habit, since virtually everyone who I communicate with using this word is via the keyboard.

Where do you think we will find Opportunity after the Sol 919 drive?

[djellison]

Always pronounced it like doll

Doug

[ynyralmaen]

... However, I would like David to post a recording of typical 5th century inhabitants of the English Isles speaking concerning issues like a solar eclipse. ...

English Isles? Oooh - careful... maybe British Isles?

Listening to the islands' 5th century inhabitants probably wouldn't help a great deal with pronouncing Sol... English barely existed then... the Angles, Saxons, etc. were only just started their immigration into south-eastern England. The vast majority of the Britain's population (not Ireland), from modern-day southern Scotland all the way south through England and Wales, would have spoken the celtic language Brythonic, or British (the most widely-spoken descendant language being modern Welsh).

The latinization of English mainly took place after the Norman conquest a few centuries later, hence David's discussion of the Gallic origins of words related to Sol.

I can't come up with the Brythonic terms for eclipse etc., but the modern Welsh word for Sun is "Haul" (almost rhyming with "mile"). Interestingly, although itself heavily latinized following the Roman conquest, Brythonic had a word for Sun that was clearly more closely related to the Greek Helios. Solar eclipse in Welsh is "diffyg ar yr haul", or "clip ar yr haul", though the latter is probably a mangling of the English "eclipse".

You probably weren't asking for a mini-lecture like this, were you? Sorry!

The pronunciation of Sol will I think always differ on opposite sides of the Atlantic. Ask anyone called Bob. As clearly demonstrated by Rowan Atkinson in Blackadder II, it sounds very different here to the "Bahb" used in the US!

[chris]

Always pronounced it like doll

Doug

Me too.

Chris

Edit: Jut realised how confusing this could be. We pronounce the word
as 'sohl' rather the American 'sahl'.