HiRISE and Mars Polar Lander |
HiRISE and Mars Polar Lander |
Jun 2 2008, 03:59 PM
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#106
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1281 Joined: 18-December 04 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 124 |
Another backshell rock sculpture from 005536_1030? Or an actual piece of MPL? Regardless, that is a cool feature -------------------- Lyford Rome
"Zis is not nuts, zis is super-nuts!" Mathematician Richard Courant on viewing an Orion test |
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Sep 11 2009, 05:01 PM
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#107
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 10-September 09 Member No.: 4933 |
There is a roughly circular bright object at pixel 36359,42905 of image ESP_013289_1035_RED.jp2. Within this object, on the right side, is a smaller white circle that might be the backshell and which measures 8 or 9 pixels (~ 2-2.25 m) in diameter. It is most brightly lit roughly in its center. Bunched up against this putative backshell, mostly on its left side, would then be the lumpy collapsed parachute. Stretching to the upper right for about 10 meters is a faint stringy-looking feature that would then be the parachute cords laid out and then doubled back. Judging from the HiRise image which includes Phoenix’s parachute cords, so the length here is about right.
This information was presented to the HiRise principal investigator who dismissed it, but he made several errors in his short reply. He apparently looked at the whole object, measured it at 4.5 meters and then stated that nothing on MPL was that large. In fact, the inflated parachute could measure as much as 8.4 meters across, so 4.5 m would seem plausible for a collapsed parachute plus backshell. His second argument was that the candidate was not sufficiently different from the terrain. This is a subjective call, but at the 1:1 scale, or a few steps up or down, there is nothing in the terrain resembling it in the field of view. It does catch the eye. Mine, at least. Finally, as near as I can make out its lat/lon, it is at 76.55 S, 165.45 E. This is very near the center of the 2 sigma ellipse for the reconstructed trajectory. I don’t know that it is a part of the MPL hardware, but that after scouring through several HiRise images of the area, this was the only plausible candidate I saw. P. Fieseler |
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Oct 23 2009, 09:40 AM
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#108
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1081 Joined: 19-February 05 From: Close to Meudon Observatory in France Member No.: 172 |
I don’t know that it is a part of the MPL hardware, but that after scouring through several HiRise images of the area, this was the only plausible candidate I saw. P. Fieseler Very interesting and great search. But looking at it closely, it seems that this "white circle" casts NO shadows, unlike other features nearby (and unlike other backshells saw on MOC images). Also, the "parachute" is not really different from lighter ground nearby... Bon courage for your search ! |
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Oct 23 2009, 03:13 PM
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#109
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Senior Member Group: Admin Posts: 4763 Joined: 15-March 05 From: Glendale, AZ Member No.: 197 |
But looking at it closely, it seems that this "white circle" casts NO shadows, unlike other features nearby Of course if you dropped something from 100 meters it would tend to acquire a flattened shape and therefore cast no shadows I will say that this is the most interesting of any of the candidate objects I've seen. My sense is that it's too big? -------------------- If Occam had heard my theory, things would be very different now.
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Oct 23 2009, 10:26 PM
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#110
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 10-September 09 Member No.: 4933 |
Thanks for taking the time to respond. It is admittedly an ambiguous object, but I wonder if people are seeing the shapes the way that I am. I will attempt to repost the image with a cartoon of what I see (or imagine that I see). The details, especially the parachute cords, are clearer in the viewer than these posted jpegs.
A parachute flat on the ground would not cast a shadow. An intact back-shell should, however. Perhaps the soil there is soft or mobile. |
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Oct 23 2009, 11:01 PM
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#111
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8783 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
Vesta, I think your "parachute cords" are actually a small bluff, and are the lower right edge of a small hill on which your interestingly VERY round small thing on top of a bigger round thing lies.
Definitely worth another look, preferably with a different illumination angle. -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Oct 25 2009, 08:15 PM
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#112
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1081 Joined: 19-February 05 From: Close to Meudon Observatory in France Member No.: 172 |
Of course if you dropped something from 100 meters it would tend to acquire a flattened shape and therefore cast no shadows Not crushed as flat as this, being slowed down at least a little by a parachute. All other backshells came down fairly intact as seen on images taken for other missions by MRO (Viking, Pathfinder, MER) and the lander themselves (MER) ( |
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Oct 25 2009, 11:53 PM
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#113
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1018 Joined: 29-November 05 From: Seattle, WA, USA Member No.: 590 |
Always beware the mind's incredible ability to see patterns where none exists.
High-Speed Turtle Especially on Mars! --Greg :-) |
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Oct 26 2009, 12:03 AM
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#114
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Senior Member Group: Admin Posts: 4763 Joined: 15-March 05 From: Glendale, AZ Member No.: 197 |
Not crushed as flat as this, being slowed down at least a little by a parachute. I was sort of joking, imagining a coyote-roadrunner cartoon. But the present theory is that the descent thrusters cut off when the landing legs deployed around 100 feet prior to touchdown, so the parachute was long gone. One could imagine however a soft soil where the craft did a combination of collapsing and embedding such that you have a debris pile that casts little or no shadow. -------------------- If Occam had heard my theory, things would be very different now.
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Oct 26 2009, 12:39 AM
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#115
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8783 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
A thought just occurred to me: If the thrusters did cut off prematurely as in one of the leading theories, would MPL still have been aerodynamically stable during the fall?
I don't know if the atmosphere would have had any significant effect during that short distance (even if it was windy), nor do I know where the vehicle's center of gravity was located. Did MPL have static stability, or were the thrusters totally necessary to keep it normal to Mars' gravity at this stage of the descent? This could definitely have some bearing on how the wreckage might appear from MRO. -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Oct 26 2009, 01:10 AM
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#116
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Member Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 5-June 08 From: Udon Thani Member No.: 4185 |
This could definitely have some bearing on how the wreckage might appear from MRO. I think a lot will also depend on how Phoenix looks to MRO after the ice has disappeared. The wreckage of MPL has been embedded in ice at least once before most of the available images were made, so how much effect does this have on for instance the parachute, will this still be visible after one winter or will it be completely covered by dust and dirt? The terrain at the MPL site is just terrible, you can easily hide hundreds of landers over there. Quite apart from that, there is so much uncertainty about the final fate that we can't be sure what we are searching for, if the engines indeed did cut off 100 feet of so above the ground then I would guess we will be looking at a mostly intact craft, more or less similar to Phoenix, but if it failed very early in the EDL then you might never recognize it. One point is, if it failed very late, why didn't we ever hear anything from the two penetrator-probes which were released very early? |
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Oct 26 2009, 03:07 AM
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#117
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Senior Member Group: Admin Posts: 4763 Joined: 15-March 05 From: Glendale, AZ Member No.: 197 |
but if it failed very early in the EDL then you might never recognize it. One point is, if it failed very late, why didn't we ever hear anything from the two penetrator-probes which were released very early? From what I heard those probes were so badly designed and not tested to the standards we might expect, that had MPL succeeded we probably never would have heard from them anyway. But I'm just reporting anecdotal recollections. I'll have to look up the specifics. -------------------- If Occam had heard my theory, things would be very different now.
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Oct 26 2009, 08:11 AM
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#118
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14431 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
The most likely failure as the investigation concluded, would be an early shut down of thrusters. This means, on the surface, there should be a heatshield, like Phoenix, a Backshell and Parachute, like Phoenix, and a crashed lander.
I'm still looking at the PHX landing sites HiRISE images of the new season, trying to find the landing site - and can't. |
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Oct 26 2009, 08:07 PM
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#119
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Member Group: Members Posts: 646 Joined: 23-December 05 From: Forest of Dean Member No.: 617 |
Whilst casually poking around to see if I could turn up a copy of that report, I came across this story reporting Michael Malin "possibly" identifying the MPL wreckage. Has this site been reimaged by HiRISE? I haven't found subsequent news on this site, probably my google-fu is weak...
-------------------- --
Viva software libre! |
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Oct 26 2009, 08:12 PM
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#120
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Solar System Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 10145 Joined: 5-April 05 From: Canada Member No.: 227 |
Yes it has been seen by HiRISE, but even before that it was re-imaged by MGS. Malin withdrew his interpretation of that feature, and now we don't know where it is. The HiRISE image is on here somewhere if you look back.
Phil -------------------- ... because the Solar System ain't gonna map itself.
Also to be found posting similar content on https://mastodon.social/@PhilStooke NOTE: everything created by me which I post on UMSF is considered to be in the public domain (NOT CC, public domain) |
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