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Blue Origins, update
jabe
post Jan 4 2007, 02:47 AM
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Blue origins update..
go Bezos go
BTW hate the web page but neat videos.. From nasawatch resource
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djellison
post Jan 8 2007, 01:03 PM
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With such high gravity to fight against, and a nice thick atmosphere that's screaming out for chutes, parafoils etc.... landing with rockets on Earth just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Doug
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AndyG
post Jan 8 2007, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 8 2007, 01:03 PM) *
[L]anding with rockets on Earth just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I agree.

Using one of the fresh envelope-backs I got for Christmas, I see that retro-rocket-landing an Apollo CM from the drogue release altitude and speed, for example, would require something like a beefed-up AJ10-137 engine (massing around 4000kg), 31 seconds' thrust (1450 kg of fuel and oxidiser), all crammed into a 5800 kg mass capsule (!!). Naturally the engine would have to poke through the heat shield, which additionally complicates matters.

Comparing that to the (original) 245kg parachutes-and-drogues-and-deployment package, it's an absolute no-brainer.

<long pause>

...though, in its favour <whispering> it would look rather Heinleinian. wink.gif

Andy
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mcaplinger
post Jan 8 2007, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (AndyG @ Jan 8 2007, 06:55 AM) *
Comparing that to the (original) 245kg parachutes-and-drogues-and-deployment package, it's an absolute no-brainer.

If you're never going to use the vehicle again, absolutely.

The arguments for VTVL all revolve around reusability and rapid turnaround. See, for example, http://www.thespacereview.com/article/412/1

I'm agnostic on the topic; like most engineering, there is no clear best solution. It's very dependent on the mission profile and on the logistical/economic assumptions.


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Disclaimer: This post is based on public information only. Any opinions are my own.
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climber
post Jan 8 2007, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Jan 8 2007, 05:35 PM) *
If you're never going to use the vehicle again, absolutely.
I'm agnostic on the topic; like most engineering, there is no clear best solution. It's very dependent on the mission profile and on the logistical/economic assumptions.

I agree but I also wonder if a Soyouz-like last seconds hard brake retro-rocket solution could be used. There's no need here to have a "smooth" hard-brake since there's nobody inside. Is they can get the retro rocket working in the good force vector and then inflate air bags so the stage doen't hit too hard, I bet it'll not be too much of an extra weight as compared to reusability. And it'll be an elegant solution.


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Bob Shaw
post Jan 8 2007, 10:22 PM
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QUOTE (climber @ Jan 8 2007, 07:48 PM) *
I agree but I also wonder if a Soyouz-like last seconds hard brake retro-rocket solution could be used. There's no need here to have a "smooth" hard-brake since there's nobody inside. Is they can get the retro rocket working in the good force vector and then inflate air bags so the stage doen't hit too hard, I bet it'll not be too much of an extra weight as compared to reusability. And it'll be an elegant solution.



Or there's the scheme for the Energia boosters, which would have landed under parachutes on Rogallo Gemini-style outriggers (you know what I mean!) and with the final impact cushioned by solid rockets. That gear is what all the square lumps were on the side of the Energia boosters - sadly, of course, never to be used in anger. So a liquid fuel first-stage land recovery system for *big* vehicles has already been built (and the boosters continue to fly in the form of Tsyklon). I was told years ago by Gerry Webb (at that time he was very cosy with the ex-Soviet rocketeers) that the core stage could also be recovered, but I've never found any references to that elsewhere.

Bob Shaw


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mchan
post Jan 9 2007, 03:53 AM
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QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jan 8 2007, 02:22 PM) *
So a liquid fuel first-stage land recovery system for *big* vehicles has already been built (and the boosters continue to fly in the form of Tsyklon).


Ahh, Zenit?
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Posts in this topic
- jabe   Blue Origins   Jan 4 2007, 02:47 AM
- - helvick   I was always a fan of the DC-X concept so this rea...   Jan 4 2007, 09:42 AM
- - djellison   Well - consider the Atlas-Mercury flights. That w...   Jan 4 2007, 10:04 AM
- - tty   The first stage of Titan I had genuine SSTO capabi...   Jan 4 2007, 11:16 AM
- - edstrick   With adequate heat shielding, a vehicle derived fr...   Jan 4 2007, 12:53 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Back in the 1960s there were a number of paper stu...   Jan 4 2007, 08:27 PM
- - climber   The goal here is "only" to get to 100 km...   Jan 4 2007, 08:19 PM
- - nprev   As a side note, this test is getting a lot of medi...   Jan 5 2007, 01:36 AM
- - edstrick   X33 was a good idea to follow up the DC-X with, bu...   Jan 5 2007, 09:50 AM
- - nprev   With respect to Blue Origin, a friend of mine ...   Jan 6 2007, 12:52 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 6 2007, 12:52 AM) un-n...   Jan 6 2007, 01:32 AM
- - nprev   Wellll....I'm not much of an orbitsmith yet, B...   Jan 6 2007, 02:58 AM
- - remcook   if you do a Hohmann-style rendezvous, you mean tha...   Jan 6 2007, 11:55 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   Absolutely! Going straight up with a VTVL fir...   Jan 6 2007, 01:50 PM
- - nprev   Yeah (sigh), that's probably quite true; a use...   Jan 7 2007, 03:47 AM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 6 2007, 10:47 PM) Yeah...   Jan 9 2007, 06:35 PM
- - edstrick   I have wondered if a 2 stage double DC-X type migh...   Jan 7 2007, 09:51 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   I think the word you're looking for is 'Ki...   Jan 7 2007, 01:48 PM
- - edstrick   The Kstler vehicles are being soft <parachute a...   Jan 8 2007, 12:22 PM
- - djellison   With such high gravity to fight against, and a nic...   Jan 8 2007, 01:03 PM
|- - AndyG   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 8 2007, 01:03 PM) ...   Jan 8 2007, 02:55 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (AndyG @ Jan 8 2007, 06:55 AM) Comp...   Jan 8 2007, 04:35 PM
|- - climber   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Jan 8 2007, 05:35 PM)...   Jan 8 2007, 07:48 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (climber @ Jan 8 2007, 07:48 PM) I ...   Jan 8 2007, 10:22 PM
|- - mchan   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jan 8 2007, 02:22 PM) S...   Jan 9 2007, 03:53 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (mchan @ Jan 9 2007, 03:53 AM) Ahh,...   Jan 9 2007, 08:37 AM
- - nprev   Well, it actually was just a back-of-the envelope ...   Jan 11 2007, 02:07 AM
- - edstrick   Landing an Apollo like capsule on rockets is -- of...   Jan 11 2007, 12:21 PM


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