My Assistant
Surface Chemistry of Titan |
Mar 6 2007, 07:14 PM
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
The bulk of the liquid in the lakes on Titan is going to be a methane/ethane combination, but a lot of polymeric organic material is going to have been washed in from the terrain, as well as blown in from the dunes. (The lakes would be a dune trap). That means ice-silt and tholin-coated ice silt.
The higher-order organic polymers may act as a surfactant to coat the ice particles. I would hazard that the hydrophilic functionalities of the polymer subunits would side with the ice particle surface and the hydrophobic parts of the polymer would face the methane solvent. This would allow some really gnarly emulsions to set up. A cross-section of a lake on Titan would look like a classic "nightmare extraction" sitting in a sep funnel in an organic chemistry laboratory. There would be a foamy goo or scum component floating on the surface, the methane/ethane layer as solvent possibly with low density organic shmeggums floating about, then a denser loose gelatinous organic polymer/solvent component full of organic yukkies (please excuse the med chem. technical jargon), then a more dense portion of organic polymer/organic solvent/water emulsion, and finally a water-ice silt bottom. Water (ice) and organics are immiscible. But hexanes and acetonitrile (CH3CN) are also immiscible. By analogy, methane should also be immiscible with CH3CN (which would be a solid at Titan’s temperature, but a lower density component than ice). This should make for yet another fun emulsion possibility. [I’ve seen waaaaay too many ugly emulsions in sep funnels with “simple” organic components.] With the complex organic chemistry at Titan, there is a very real possiblitiy of multiple layers of emulsions combined with an organic scum layer at the surface. I’m not sure how any of this would affect specular reflections or even radar penetration. The surface would not look like the pretty foam of a bubble batch but more like the curd on overcooked pea soup.. Would certain layers reflect radar better than others? Can you get specular reflection when there are bubbles or “floaters” on the surface? What if the “floaters” are soft low density organics? How do organic emulsion blobs reflect radar? The patterns we are seeing in the lower parts of the lakes may be channels in the goopy lower emulsion layers (think of the orange crud at the bottom of scummy ponds). I could imagine a scenario when higher density organic goo flows into the lakes and carves a path through the less dense emulsion. The real “bottoms” of the lakes may lie under meters of organic emulsion. Lakes on Titan may resemble more of an open pit hazmat toxic waste dump (although I still like to think of it as “a pristine prebiotic environment”). -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Mar 13 2007, 02:57 PM
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#2
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 1041 |
With 20/20 hindsight, we can see that the surface science package prepared for Huygens contained a fundamental flaw: It was designed upon the bases of what we expected to find, not upon the bases of "we don't have a clue what the surface of Titan is made of."
Dealing with totally unknowns is always problematic: I have watched an archeologist bite into a 'bead' (to check it's hardness) and discover it was a rabbit pellet. I was once brought a quart can by the son of an old prospecter who was certain that what he had found in his father's attic was gold dust. Even after I told him it was brass (fizzed in nitric acid), he insisted on taking it to another laboratory. When we return to Titan, we need to bring with us a surface science package that plays the 20 question game very well. I hope some budding astrochemist is working on it right now: A laboratory the size of a tennis ball that can analysize anything...even frozen sulfuric acid. |
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Juramike Surface Chemistry of Titan Mar 6 2007, 07:14 PM
Stu Can't claim for a moment to have understood mu... Mar 6 2007, 08:08 PM
ngunn Yes, a useful post, thanks. I had been wondering a... Mar 6 2007, 09:09 PM
stevesliva Titan's tar tarns revealed.
The real question... Mar 6 2007, 11:26 PM
nprev QUOTE (stevesliva @ Mar 6 2007, 03:26 PM)... Mar 7 2007, 01:04 AM
nprev Yes indeed, a terrific post, Juramike. I suspected... Mar 6 2007, 11:31 PM
lyford MMMMMmmm "creme brulee crust and scummy pea s... Mar 6 2007, 11:52 PM
edstrick "...Lakes on Titan may resemble more of an op... Mar 7 2007, 09:52 AM
remcook "[...] although I still like to think of it a... Mar 7 2007, 10:34 AM
ustrax Great post juramike! Really visual and...smell... Mar 7 2007, 10:48 AM
ngunn I imagine that when fresh rain falls it is really ... Mar 7 2007, 01:59 PM
ustrax Thanks ngunn.
Here's an interesting pdf, I do... Mar 7 2007, 02:42 PM
ngunn Thanks Ustrax! That one's a real peach. Lo... Mar 7 2007, 03:08 PM
ustrax Another question...
In a crop from this image it... Mar 7 2007, 03:35 PM
ngunn OK this is difficult because I can't post anno... Mar 7 2007, 04:27 PM
ustrax Good interpretation ngunn, I hadn't seen those... Mar 7 2007, 05:27 PM
Juramike QUOTE One thing that makes me scratch my head is w... Mar 7 2007, 05:26 PM
Littlebit QUOTE (Juramike @ Mar 7 2007, 10:26 AM) A... Mar 7 2007, 07:25 PM

remcook QUOTE (Littlebit @ Mar 7 2007, 07:25 PM) ... Mar 7 2007, 07:42 PM

Juramike QUOTE (Littlebit @ Mar 7 2007, 02:25 PM) ... Mar 7 2007, 08:35 PM
ustrax QUOTE (Juramike @ Mar 7 2007, 05:26 PM) T... Mar 8 2007, 09:37 AM
helvick Brilliant thread folks. Goo-ological cycles, gunk ... Mar 7 2007, 08:01 PM
belleraphon1 All...
agree this is a fascinating thread.
I a... Mar 7 2007, 09:31 PM
Juramike QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ Mar 7 2007, 04:31 P... Mar 7 2007, 10:48 PM
elakdawalla QUOTE (Juramike @ Mar 7 2007, 02:48 PM) [... Mar 7 2007, 11:41 PM
ngunn I'm not a chemist either but perhaps the room-... Mar 7 2007, 10:16 PM
nprev Wow...we have a no-kidding organic chemist in the ... Mar 7 2007, 11:00 PM
tty QUOTE (nprev @ Mar 8 2007, 12:00 AM) I as... Mar 7 2007, 11:14 PM
JRehling This is fascinating stuff. Trying to figure out th... Mar 7 2007, 11:26 PM

tty QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 8 2007, 12:26 AM) I... Mar 8 2007, 01:55 PM
remcook QUOTE (tty @ Mar 7 2007, 11:14 PM) Nitrog... Mar 8 2007, 08:56 AM
nprev Yikes! I'll put out my cigar now... Mar 7 2007, 11:41 PM
belleraphon1 Mike...
be careful in your lab. I may have two... Mar 8 2007, 01:12 AM
AndyG Fascinating as these lakes are, it's worth rem... Mar 8 2007, 09:26 AM
ngunn I think it's worth bearing in mind that the gr... Mar 8 2007, 10:04 AM
ustrax I don't know if this might be useful to you bu... Mar 8 2007, 11:10 AM
ngunn Glad too see AndyG urging for a super-long-lived T... Mar 8 2007, 10:37 AM
ngunn QUOTE (JRehling @ Mar 7 2007, 11:26 PM) E... Mar 8 2007, 12:09 PM
ustrax QUOTE (ngunn @ Mar 8 2007, 12:09 PM) Mayb... Mar 8 2007, 12:49 PM
Juramike From the "Titan lakes revealed" thread
... Mar 8 2007, 01:23 PM
ustrax Precious...just precious to read your words...
... Mar 8 2007, 01:37 PM
ustrax Knowing that Titan is still active in its interior... Mar 8 2007, 03:02 PM
belleraphon1 QUOTE (ustrax @ Mar 8 2007, 10:02 AM) Kno... Mar 8 2007, 04:46 PM
ustrax QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ Mar 8 2007, 04:46 P... Mar 8 2007, 05:22 PM
Juramike I'm guessing the really interesting molecules ... Mar 8 2007, 03:01 PM
belleraphon1 All....
once again have to keep in mind the surf... Mar 8 2007, 04:44 PM
Juramike QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ Mar 8 2007, 11:44 A... Mar 8 2007, 07:39 PM
tty Note that one theory of how life originally evolve... Mar 8 2007, 07:11 PM
nprev Large impacts, though rare, undoubtedly must have ... Mar 8 2007, 07:57 PM
tty With such a deep atmosphere micrometeorites would ... Mar 8 2007, 10:35 PM
belleraphon1 QUOTE (tty @ Mar 8 2007, 05:35 PM) With s... Mar 8 2007, 10:50 PM
Mongo According to this pdf, The following substances wo... Mar 8 2007, 10:37 PM
Juramike QUOTE (Mongo @ Mar 8 2007, 05:37 PM) etha... Mar 8 2007, 10:45 PM
ngunn Brief comment - organic chemistry is definitely no... Mar 8 2007, 10:42 PM
belleraphon1 QUOTE (ngunn @ Mar 8 2007, 05:42 PM) Brie... Mar 8 2007, 11:01 PM
Juramike QUOTE (ngunn @ Mar 8 2007, 05:42 PM) 1/ W... Mar 8 2007, 11:02 PM
dvandorn You know, it's a lot of fun to talk about all ... Mar 9 2007, 07:19 AM
ustrax Speaking of Titan surface...
I made a sequence fro... Mar 9 2007, 11:37 AM
Littlebit QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 9 2007, 12:19 AM) Y... Mar 9 2007, 02:32 PM
centsworth_II QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 9 2007, 02:19 AM) .... Mar 9 2007, 03:21 PM
Juramike QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 9 2007, 02:19 AM) T... Mar 9 2007, 04:12 PM

centsworth_II QUOTE (Juramike @ Mar 9 2007, 11:12 AM) I... Mar 9 2007, 04:45 PM
stevesliva QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 9 2007, 02:19 AM) w... Mar 9 2007, 11:11 PM
ngunn QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 9 2007, 07:19 AM) a... Mar 12 2007, 02:43 PM
centsworth_II QUOTE (ngunn @ Mar 12 2007, 10:43 AM) The... Mar 12 2007, 03:46 PM
ngunn One idea is that some process destroys ammonia pre... Mar 9 2007, 03:06 PM
belleraphon1 And what is causing the butterscoth coloration? Yo... Mar 9 2007, 04:47 PM
centsworth_II QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ Mar 9 2007, 11:47 A... Mar 9 2007, 05:00 PM

Littlebit QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Mar 9 2007, 11:00 ... Mar 12 2007, 02:03 PM

centsworth_II QUOTE (Littlebit @ Mar 12 2007, 10:03 AM)... Mar 12 2007, 03:26 PM
belleraphon1 QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ Mar 9 2007, 12:47 P... Mar 16 2007, 02:50 AM
tasp Here's an enlargement of the Miller/Urey flask... Mar 12 2007, 02:35 PM
ngunn An absolutely black matrix dotted with even a smal... Mar 12 2007, 03:45 PM
Littlebit QUOTE (ngunn @ Mar 12 2007, 09:45 AM) An ... Mar 12 2007, 04:58 PM
centsworth_II QUOTE (Littlebit @ Mar 12 2007, 12:58 PM)... Mar 12 2007, 05:19 PM
ngunn Titan mud - maybe like a dried up oil slick??
Dunn... Mar 12 2007, 04:00 PM
ngunn My thanks also for that useful link. An interestin... Mar 12 2007, 08:50 PM
dvandorn This is emblematic of the "scale trap" w... Mar 13 2007, 04:44 AM
edstrick All the evidence on Titan surface compositions (pl... Mar 13 2007, 09:14 AM
djellison QUOTE (Littlebit @ Mar 13 2007, 02:57 PM)... Mar 13 2007, 04:17 PM
remcook "It was designed upon the bases of what we ex... Mar 13 2007, 03:34 PM
dvandorn Useful? Yes. But it was *optimized* for the liqu... Mar 13 2007, 04:06 PM
ngunn Couldn't agree more. It was brilliant. The com... Mar 13 2007, 05:27 PM
ustrax QUOTE (ngunn @ Mar 13 2007, 05:27 PM) I d... Mar 14 2007, 09:34 AM
Juramike The fact that we are discussing these questions in... Mar 13 2007, 07:28 PM
edstrick After all, Huygen's primary mission ENDED at i... Mar 14 2007, 09:16 AM
ngunn Splendid stuff. And presumably this proposal will ... Mar 14 2007, 02:13 PM
ustrax QUOTE (ngunn @ Mar 14 2007, 02:13 PM) Spl... Mar 14 2007, 02:22 PM
remcook NASA's solar system exploration roadmap seems ... Mar 14 2007, 02:22 PM
remcook this theme sounds familiar
http://space.newscienti... Mar 14 2007, 03:59 PM
nprev The hell of it all is that I'm not sure that w... Mar 16 2007, 03:34 AM
Stu Been working on this awhile, hope some of you enjo... Mar 25 2007, 12:26 PM
ngunn I like that Stuart, especially the 'fat foul r... Mar 26 2007, 01:40 PM
Juramike (With total apologies to Stu and his beautiful poe... Mar 30 2007, 09:18 PM
paxdan QUOTE (Juramike @ Mar 30 2007, 10:18 PM) ... Mar 30 2007, 10:25 PM
volcanopele You don't know how close I came to doing my LP... Mar 30 2007, 09:54 PM
nprev Zig-a-zag-a, whiff-a-whiff-a-whiff-a...
VP!
A... Mar 30 2007, 11:30 PM
centsworth_II Props on the mad skills y'all! Mar 31 2007, 04:12 PM
nprev Word! Nothin' but love for y'all...pea... Mar 31 2007, 09:45 PM![]() ![]() |
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