My Assistant
Surface Chemistry of Titan |
Mar 6 2007, 07:14 PM
Post
#101
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
The bulk of the liquid in the lakes on Titan is going to be a methane/ethane combination, but a lot of polymeric organic material is going to have been washed in from the terrain, as well as blown in from the dunes. (The lakes would be a dune trap). That means ice-silt and tholin-coated ice silt.
The higher-order organic polymers may act as a surfactant to coat the ice particles. I would hazard that the hydrophilic functionalities of the polymer subunits would side with the ice particle surface and the hydrophobic parts of the polymer would face the methane solvent. This would allow some really gnarly emulsions to set up. A cross-section of a lake on Titan would look like a classic "nightmare extraction" sitting in a sep funnel in an organic chemistry laboratory. There would be a foamy goo or scum component floating on the surface, the methane/ethane layer as solvent possibly with low density organic shmeggums floating about, then a denser loose gelatinous organic polymer/solvent component full of organic yukkies (please excuse the med chem. technical jargon), then a more dense portion of organic polymer/organic solvent/water emulsion, and finally a water-ice silt bottom. Water (ice) and organics are immiscible. But hexanes and acetonitrile (CH3CN) are also immiscible. By analogy, methane should also be immiscible with CH3CN (which would be a solid at Titan’s temperature, but a lower density component than ice). This should make for yet another fun emulsion possibility. [I’ve seen waaaaay too many ugly emulsions in sep funnels with “simple” organic components.] With the complex organic chemistry at Titan, there is a very real possiblitiy of multiple layers of emulsions combined with an organic scum layer at the surface. I’m not sure how any of this would affect specular reflections or even radar penetration. The surface would not look like the pretty foam of a bubble batch but more like the curd on overcooked pea soup.. Would certain layers reflect radar better than others? Can you get specular reflection when there are bubbles or “floaters” on the surface? What if the “floaters” are soft low density organics? How do organic emulsion blobs reflect radar? The patterns we are seeing in the lower parts of the lakes may be channels in the goopy lower emulsion layers (think of the orange crud at the bottom of scummy ponds). I could imagine a scenario when higher density organic goo flows into the lakes and carves a path through the less dense emulsion. The real “bottoms” of the lakes may lie under meters of organic emulsion. Lakes on Titan may resemble more of an open pit hazmat toxic waste dump (although I still like to think of it as “a pristine prebiotic environment”). -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Juramike Surface Chemistry of Titan Mar 6 2007, 07:14 PM
Stu Wow, thanks nprev, praise indeed! As someone w... Apr 1 2007, 09:24 AM
nprev Not at all, Stu... ...good work! We need you ... Apr 1 2007, 09:46 AM
Stu QUOTE (nprev @ Apr 1 2007, 09:46 AM) Abou... Apr 1 2007, 09:57 AM
nprev ...wow. Dr. Hawking is my all-time hero for many r... Apr 2 2007, 05:03 PM
nprev Okay, brief moment of inspiration for Stu's us... Apr 2 2007, 05:26 PM
Juramike I created a table of possible lower molecular weig... Apr 26 2007, 08:45 PM
ngunn An excellent resource, thank you very much. I had ... Apr 26 2007, 09:00 PM
belleraphon1 All...
several new papaers of interest to this t... Apr 30 2007, 12:19 PM
The Messenger Just a reminder:
http://www.nature.com/nature/jou... May 1 2007, 04:07 PM
DFortes The near infrared spectrum of ammonium sulfate is ... May 1 2007, 04:19 PM
Littlebit QUOTE All molecules display a more or less pronoun... May 1 2007, 07:07 PM
remcook QUOTE (Littlebit @ May 1 2007, 08:07 PM) ... May 2 2007, 01:45 PM
belleraphon1 DFortes...
Glad to have you onboard!!... May 1 2007, 08:06 PM
Mongo This is more atmospheric chemistry than surface ch... May 2 2007, 02:02 AM
The Messenger QUOTE (Mongo @ May 1 2007, 08:02 PM) We f... May 2 2007, 05:59 AM
Littlebit QUOTE (Liang et al)The results for five variations... May 2 2007, 08:41 PM
Juramike Has anyone seen any papers that describe the react... May 15 2007, 09:31 PM
Stu QUOTE (Juramike @ May 15 2007, 09:31 PM) ... May 15 2007, 09:33 PM
Juramike QUOTE (Stu @ May 15 2007, 05:33 PM) This ... May 15 2007, 09:46 PM
Stu QUOTE (Juramike @ May 15 2007, 09:46 PM) ... May 16 2007, 07:40 AM
TheChemist QUOTE (Juramike @ May 16 2007, 12:46 AM) ... May 16 2007, 11:12 AM
lyford You know, between this and the other Titan threads... May 15 2007, 11:36 PM
nprev Mike, we dawgs thank you for your impressive resea... May 16 2007, 02:22 AM
ngunn QUOTE (nprev @ May 16 2007, 03:22 AM) IR ... May 16 2007, 02:16 PM
Juramike QUOTE (nprev @ May 15 2007, 10:22 PM) IR ... May 16 2007, 03:00 PM
remcook As far as I know, people have just made tholins un... May 16 2007, 07:03 AM
Stu Woof woof woof... arf arff grrrrr wuff!
(tra... May 16 2007, 12:48 PM
ngunn Some thoughts from a doggy-chemist (more scents th... May 16 2007, 01:00 PM
belleraphon1 Yeroooorlwwww.
This cool cat TRULY appreciates a... May 16 2007, 01:49 PM
Littlebit Once sulfates are included in the resource list, n... May 16 2007, 02:16 PM
Juramike Two really interesting papers relevant to this thr... May 16 2007, 02:48 PM
nprev Woof! <whine>...I'm utterly convince... May 16 2007, 03:37 PM
Littlebit The dielectric content of polar molecules, includi... May 16 2007, 05:07 PM
Juramike Does anyone know how deep RADAR scatterometry (for... May 16 2007, 09:58 PM
belleraphon1 QUOTE (Juramike @ May 16 2007, 05:58 PM) ... May 16 2007, 11:11 PM

nprev QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ May 16 2007, 04:11 ... May 16 2007, 11:36 PM

TheChemist QUOTE (nprev @ May 17 2007, 02:36 AM) Fra... May 17 2007, 10:21 AM

centsworth_II QUOTE (TheChemist @ May 17 2007, 06:21 AM... May 17 2007, 02:50 PM

TheChemist QUOTE (centsworth_II @ May 17 2007, 05:50... May 18 2007, 08:33 AM
Littlebit QUOTE (Juramike @ May 16 2007, 03:58 PM) ... May 17 2007, 07:49 PM
ngunn Some thoughts on the complexity of Titan -
Certa... May 17 2007, 02:54 PM
Mongo QUOTE (ngunn @ May 17 2007, 02:54 PM) I h... May 20 2007, 02:58 PM
ngunn QUOTE (Mongo @ May 20 2007, 03:58 PM) If ... May 20 2007, 03:52 PM
centsworth_II QUOTE (ngunn @ May 20 2007, 11:52 AM) Bef... May 20 2007, 04:11 PM
Juramike The Complex Titan Scenario has some precedent in ... May 17 2007, 03:54 PM
ngunn Exactly so. In Cairns-Smith's clay hypothesis ... May 17 2007, 06:15 PM
Juramike Here are two interesting papers on tholins:
Berna... May 18 2007, 08:59 PM
TheChemist As much I would like to see all these instruments ... May 19 2007, 07:41 AM
nprev No apology necessary at all, Chemist; your point w... May 19 2007, 06:24 PM
ngunn QUOTE (nprev @ May 19 2007, 07:24 PM) Rou... May 19 2007, 07:42 PM
nprev QUOTE (ngunn @ May 19 2007, 12:42 PM) Do ... May 19 2007, 10:55 PM
ngunn QUOTE (nprev @ May 19 2007, 11:55 PM) Thi... May 20 2007, 03:23 PM
rlorenz QUOTE (ngunn @ May 20 2007, 11:23 AM) No ... May 23 2007, 08:05 AM
edstrick It's abundantly clear by now that the real com... May 20 2007, 09:28 AM
Mongo I am not sure I agree. If the Complex Titan Scena... May 20 2007, 04:25 PM
nprev I think I see where you're coming from, Mongo;... May 20 2007, 08:22 PM
ngunn Well I'd be happy to be wrong about that (thou... May 20 2007, 08:26 PM
nprev Hmm. True, ngunn.
Really makes you wonder what m... May 20 2007, 08:30 PM
Mongo I am sure that complex autocatalytic systems (I am... May 20 2007, 08:48 PM
ngunn For me, the live issue is that we need to be on th... May 20 2007, 09:33 PM
nprev I doubt very much that Cassini can decisively answ... May 21 2007, 12:12 AM
Littlebit Instrumentation should be relatively easy on the n... May 21 2007, 01:44 PM
edstrick "...What needs to be developed are autosample... May 22 2007, 09:16 AM
Juramike (From rlorenz's post on Titan's lakes reve... May 30 2007, 07:56 PM
Juramike I updated the list from post 106 (this thread).
T... Jun 1 2007, 10:00 PM
Juramike From the CICLOPS “Looking ahead” post for Rev 48 (... Jul 22 2007, 04:57 PM
rlorenz QUOTE (Juramike @ Jul 22 2007, 12:57 PM) ... Jul 23 2007, 02:26 PM
edstrick "The lakes and seas of Titan just got even mo... Jul 23 2007, 06:45 AM
TheChemist Benzene dunes ?
Well, I did some polymerization... Jul 23 2007, 08:26 AM
Juramike QUOTE (TheChemist @ Jul 23 2007, 04:26 AM... Jul 23 2007, 04:50 PM
nprev On the lighter side, you definitely wouldn't l... Jul 31 2007, 01:05 PM
remcook regarding composition: here's a presentation f... Jul 31 2007, 03:42 PM
Juramike QUOTE (remcook @ Jul 31 2007, 11:42 AM) r... Aug 10 2007, 09:48 PM
nprev marsbug: It would be fascinating to dig through la... Jul 31 2007, 04:05 PM
TheChemist Guys, I hate to spoil your enthusiasm, but I doubt... Aug 1 2007, 11:10 AM
belleraphon1 QUOTE (TheChemist @ Aug 1 2007, 07:10 AM)... Aug 1 2007, 11:47 AM
Juramike QUOTE (TheChemist @ Aug 1 2007, 07:10 AM)... Aug 1 2007, 03:38 PM
TheChemist QUOTE (Juramike @ Aug 1 2007, 06:38 PM) T... Aug 2 2007, 08:59 AM
rlorenz QUOTE (TheChemist @ Aug 2 2007, 04:59 AM)... Aug 4 2007, 02:54 PM
Juramike Thanks for the links!
And I had access to the... Aug 2 2007, 10:35 PM
ngunn Thanks for that excellent link, rlorenz. All 117 ... Aug 8 2007, 11:23 AM
Juramike Thank you for the excellent reference!
From p... Aug 9 2007, 04:26 PM
belleraphon1 QUOTE (Juramike @ Aug 9 2007, 12:26 PM) S... Aug 10 2007, 02:37 AM

ngunn QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ Aug 10 2007, 03:37 ... Aug 14 2007, 02:54 PM
TheChemist What a cool thread we have here !
QUOTE (Jur... Aug 10 2007, 08:08 AM
rlorenz QUOTE (Juramike @ Aug 9 2007, 12:26 PM) A... Aug 10 2007, 12:32 PM
marsbug Just having fun with an idea that may be utter rub... Aug 9 2007, 04:36 PM
Juramike QUOTE (marsbug @ Aug 9 2007, 12:36 PM) Th... Aug 10 2007, 11:18 PM
belleraphon1 Thanks rlorenz ....
Wonderful report.... I have ... Aug 9 2007, 07:03 PM
nprev Belleraphon, I completely agree that Mike needs to... Aug 10 2007, 10:05 PM
belleraphon1 nprev... (I know you are AI... is it gauch to ask ... Aug 11 2007, 04:05 AM
marsbug Here is a link to the letter in nature describing ... Aug 13 2007, 01:29 PM
Littlebit They kinda step sideways into the assumption that ... Aug 13 2007, 08:49 PM
remcook QUOTE 1) No ammonia has been found in the upper at... Aug 14 2007, 09:22 AM
belleraphon1 A great post from Emily at TPS.
http://www.plane... Aug 16 2007, 10:19 PM![]() ![]() |
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