Mars rover finds "puddles" on the planet's surface |
Mars rover finds "puddles" on the planet's surface |
Jun 8 2007, 05:11 PM
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#1
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Senior Member Group: Admin Posts: 4763 Joined: 15-March 05 From: Glendale, AZ Member No.: 197 |
New Scientist
Mars rover finds "puddles" on the planet's surface http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?i...line-news_rss20 A new analysis of pictures taken by the exploration rover Opportunity reveals what appear to be small ponds of liquid water on the surface of Mars. The report identifies specific spots that appear to have contained liquid water two years ago, when Opportunity was exploring a crater called Endurance. It is a highly controversial claim, as many scientists believe that liquid water cannot exist on the surface of Mars today because of the planet’s thin atmosphere. ... MORE -------------------- If Occam had heard my theory, things would be very different now.
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Jun 8 2007, 05:18 PM
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#2
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2173 Joined: 28-December 04 From: Florida, USA Member No.: 132 |
What about mini-tess data? I thought water, and I'm guessing ice,
would show up clearly -- and no such clear signal has been seen in any of the "wet" appearing locations seen by the rovers. |
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Jun 8 2007, 05:30 PM
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#3
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Senior Member Group: Admin Posts: 4763 Joined: 15-March 05 From: Glendale, AZ Member No.: 197 |
Of course, based on their theories, one could argue that conditions within Victoria might create something similar.
(....and I have no opinion on this, though I'm leaning hard toward skeptical) -------------------- If Occam had heard my theory, things would be very different now.
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Jun 8 2007, 05:34 PM
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#4
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Guests |
New Scientist Mars rover finds "puddles" on the planet's surface http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?i...line-news_rss20 Conference presentations are interesting and entertaining (e.g., those purporting to find chlorophyll and lichens in Mars lander imagery) but wake me up when and if Levin and Lyddy get this result past peer review in a mainstream science journal. |
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Jun 8 2007, 05:42 PM
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#5
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Dublin Correspondent Group: Admin Posts: 1799 Joined: 28-March 05 From: Celbridge, Ireland Member No.: 220 |
"Flatness" and "Blueness" don't seem very compelling indicators of liquid water given the environment we were talking about.As centsworth_II pointed out if there had been such significant amounts of surface water in that general environment (or more accurately surface ice because that encounter happened in late autumn\winter time at temperatures below -50C ) then surely it would have been very, very obvious in the various Mini-TES\Mossbauer\APXS data that was taken.
Count me as being very solidly on board the good ship "Highly Sceptical". |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:01 PM
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 242 Joined: 17-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 34 |
I too have a strong cant towards the skeptical.
Wasn't the location of these images on a slope? If so, shouldn't the purported liquid be flowing? It seems to me that the image accompanying the article is part grayscale and part colorized. Does it look that way to anyone else? |
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Guest_3488_* |
Jun 8 2007, 06:18 PM
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#7
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Guests |
..Deleted.
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Jun 8 2007, 06:24 PM
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#8
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Guests |
Remember New Scientist, although on the whole a quality publication, has to pander to advertisers, hence from time to time, sensationalist items to satisfy its commercial obligations. Remember also that the article's author, David Chandler, has, no pun intended, been carrying water for Levin pere et al. all the way back to Chandler's stint as a reporter at the Boston Globe. |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:25 PM
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#9
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 4245 Joined: 17-January 05 Member No.: 152 |
Count me in as extremely sceptical too. These results were presented to engineers, by the sound of it? You can argue all you like about flatness and smoothness, but if you claim that's enough evidence for pools of water then you're living in a vacuum sparser than Martian air.
Already there seem to be big contradictions: from the New Scientist article: QUOTE He says his analysis shows that there can be wind-free environments at certain times of day in certain protected locations. He thinks that could apply to these small depressions inside the sheltered bowl of Endurance crater, at midday in the Martian summer. As others have said, all the outcrop we saw inside Endurance was on a slope!I have vague memories of someone in these groups claiming those flat, smooth collections of sand/dust were formed by water. At the time I saw no visible evidence of water having been there, nevermind still being there! Does someone recognize the image from the article? What sol is it from? |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:30 PM
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 258 Joined: 22-December 06 Member No.: 1503 |
I do not believe it. The Martian atmosphere even at the Datum Line is no denser than the Earth's atmosphere is at 30 kilometres / 19 miles above sea level. Unless extremely cold & / or saline, water will just boil off. Remember New Scientist, although on the whole a quality publication, has to pander to advertisers, hence from time to time, sensationalist items to satisfy its commercial obligations. Yes the porported puddles were on a fairly steep slope, which even under 38% gravity will run downhill. Andrew Brown. To be fair, they are saying it must be saline water. But, I too am skeptical. I remember those images when they first came down. I thought it was possible evidence for PAST puddling for for a few minutes, then realized that such evidence would have quickly disappeared. My guess is that it is more likely extremely fine dust settled down to make the smooth surface. Such fine dust could easily "pool" in such cracks in a windless region of a crater. It's not water...just my opinion. |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:31 PM
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#11
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Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 27-January 05 From: Arlington, Virginia Member No.: 159 |
Here's the same image from slinted's site (Sol 290). I'm pretty sure it's looking up from Oppy towards the rim. What a bunch of hogwash.
EDIT: Context. It's on a huge slope. That article should be pulled. |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:33 PM
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#12
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2997 Joined: 30-October 04 Member No.: 105 |
Horsepucky. The fine, mobile blue dust (which I informally term 'hematite dust') does tend to flow in channels and pool as flat, featureless areas, but it ain't hardly a liquid.
--Bill -------------------- |
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Jun 8 2007, 06:47 PM
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#13
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I like this little gem at the end of the article:
So, I guess Opportunity is to drive all the way back to Endurance and drill a RAT-hole in these features? Now that sounds like a worthwhile expenditure of resources and time to test a shaky hypothesis. Frankly, methinks that Levin and Lyddy know this "simple test" isn't anywhere near feasible; therefore, their claims will remain "unresolved" and hence, "viable." |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:54 PM
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#14
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1281 Joined: 18-December 04 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 124 |
This appears to be the same area that my Pachinko Machine Theory Of Sand Deposition addressed in an earlier thread.
In this pic, you can sort of make out the sand grains as they tumble into "puddles". I call "no way." -------------------- Lyford Rome
"Zis is not nuts, zis is super-nuts!" Mathematician Richard Courant on viewing an Orion test |
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Jun 8 2007, 07:10 PM
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#15
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 4245 Joined: 17-January 05 Member No.: 152 |
Thanks, babakm, for IDing the location. Pools of water on the slopes of Burns Cliff! It looks like they forgot to compensate for the tilt angle of the rover itself!
Thanks too, lyford, for digging up that old thread. I knew we'd been through this before. AlexBlackwell, it seems a simple calculation of the slope would resolve this; I can't see it remaining "viable". This talk was given three months ago. Did the author of the New Scientist article think to ask any of the people who actually studied Endurance?! This is so ludicrous that I can't help but smell an agenda. |
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