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Mars rover finds "puddles" on the planet's surface
ElkGroveDan
post Jun 8 2007, 05:11 PM
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New Scientist
Mars rover finds "puddles" on the planet's surface

http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?i...line-news_rss20

A new analysis of pictures taken by the exploration rover Opportunity reveals what appear to be small ponds of liquid water on the surface of Mars.

The report identifies specific spots that appear to have contained liquid water two years ago, when Opportunity was exploring a crater called Endurance. It is a highly controversial claim, as many scientists believe that liquid water cannot exist on the surface of Mars today because of the planet’s thin atmosphere.
...

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centsworth_II
post Jun 8 2007, 05:18 PM
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What about mini-tess data? I thought water, and I'm guessing ice,
would show up clearly -- and no such clear signal has been seen
in any of the "wet" appearing locations seen by the rovers.
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ElkGroveDan
post Jun 8 2007, 05:30 PM
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Of course, based on their theories, one could argue that conditions within Victoria might create something similar.

(....and I have no opinion on this, though I'm leaning hard toward skeptical)


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Guest_AlexBlackwell_*
post Jun 8 2007, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jun 8 2007, 07:11 AM) *
New Scientist
Mars rover finds "puddles" on the planet's surface
http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?i...line-news_rss20

Conference presentations are interesting and entertaining (e.g., those purporting to find chlorophyll and lichens in Mars lander imagery) but wake me up when and if Levin and Lyddy get this result past peer review in a mainstream science journal.
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helvick
post Jun 8 2007, 05:42 PM
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"Flatness" and "Blueness" don't seem very compelling indicators of liquid water given the environment we were talking about.As centsworth_II pointed out if there had been such significant amounts of surface water in that general environment (or more accurately surface ice because that encounter happened in late autumn\winter time at temperatures below -50C ) then surely it would have been very, very obvious in the various Mini-TES\Mossbauer\APXS data that was taken.

Count me as being very solidly on board the good ship "Highly Sceptical".
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Gray
post Jun 8 2007, 06:01 PM
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I too have a strong cant towards the skeptical.

Wasn't the location of these images on a slope? If so, shouldn't the purported liquid be flowing?

It seems to me that the image accompanying the article is part grayscale and part colorized. Does it look that way to anyone else?
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post Jun 8 2007, 06:18 PM
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_*
post Jun 8 2007, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE (3488 @ Jun 8 2007, 08:18 AM) *
Remember New Scientist, although on the whole a quality publication, has to pander to advertisers, hence from time to time, sensationalist items to satisfy its commercial obligations.

Remember also that the article's author, David Chandler, has, no pun intended, been carrying water for Levin pere et al. all the way back to Chandler's stint as a reporter at the Boston Globe.
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fredk
post Jun 8 2007, 06:25 PM
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Count me in as extremely sceptical too. These results were presented to engineers, by the sound of it? You can argue all you like about flatness and smoothness, but if you claim that's enough evidence for pools of water then you're living in a vacuum sparser than Martian air.

Already there seem to be big contradictions: from the New Scientist article:
QUOTE
He says his analysis shows that there can be wind-free environments at certain times of day in certain protected locations. He thinks that could apply to these small depressions inside the sheltered bowl of Endurance crater, at midday in the Martian summer.
As others have said, all the outcrop we saw inside Endurance was on a slope!

I have vague memories of someone in these groups claiming those flat, smooth collections of sand/dust were formed by water. At the time I saw no visible evidence of water having been there, nevermind still being there!

Does someone recognize the image from the article? What sol is it from?
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MarsIsImportant
post Jun 8 2007, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (3488 @ Jun 8 2007, 01:18 PM) *
I do not believe it.

The Martian atmosphere even at the Datum Line is no denser than the Earth's atmosphere is at 30 kilometres / 19 miles above sea level. dd.gif

Unless extremely cold & / or saline, water will just boil off.

Remember New Scientist, although on the whole a quality publication, has to pander to advertisers, hence from time to time, sensationalist items to satisfy its commercial obligations.

Yes the porported puddles were on a fairly steep slope, which even under 38% gravity will run downhill.

Andrew Brown.


To be fair, they are saying it must be saline water. But, I too am skeptical. I remember those images when they first came down. I thought it was possible evidence for PAST puddling for for a few minutes, then realized that such evidence would have quickly disappeared. My guess is that it is more likely extremely fine dust settled down to make the smooth surface. Such fine dust could easily "pool" in such cracks in a windless region of a crater. It's not water...just my opinion.
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babakm
post Jun 8 2007, 06:31 PM
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Here's the same image from slinted's site (Sol 290). I'm pretty sure it's looking up from Oppy towards the rim. What a bunch of hogwash.

EDIT: Context. It's on a huge slope. That article should be pulled.
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Bill Harris
post Jun 8 2007, 06:33 PM
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Horsepucky. The fine, mobile blue dust (which I informally term 'hematite dust') does tend to flow in channels and pool as flat, featureless areas, but it ain't hardly a liquid.

--Bill


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Guest_AlexBlackwell_*
post Jun 8 2007, 06:47 PM
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I like this little gem at the end of the article:

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Although the rover is now miles away from this site, Levin proposes a simple test that would prove the presence of liquid if similar features are found: use the rover's drill on the surface of the flat area. If it is ice, or any solid material, the drill will leave unmistakable markings, but if it is liquid there should be no trace of the drill's activity.

So, I guess Opportunity is to drive all the way back to Endurance and drill a RAT-hole in these features? Now that sounds like a worthwhile expenditure of resources and time to test a shaky hypothesis.

Frankly, methinks that Levin and Lyddy know this "simple test" isn't anywhere near feasible; therefore, their claims will remain "unresolved" and hence, "viable."
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lyford
post Jun 8 2007, 06:54 PM
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This appears to be the same area that my Pachinko Machine Theory Of Sand Deposition addressed in an earlier thread. smile.gif

In this pic, you can sort of make out the sand grains as they tumble into "puddles".

I call "no way."


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fredk
post Jun 8 2007, 07:10 PM
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Thanks, babakm, for IDing the location. Pools of water on the slopes of Burns Cliff! It looks like they forgot to compensate for the tilt angle of the rover itself! laugh.gif

Thanks too, lyford, for digging up that old thread. I knew we'd been through this before.

AlexBlackwell, it seems a simple calculation of the slope would resolve this; I can't see it remaining "viable".

This talk was given three months ago. Did the author of the New Scientist article think to ask any of the people who actually studied Endurance?! This is so ludicrous that I can't help but smell an agenda. mad.gif
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