[X] My Assistant

[CosmicRocker]

I was reading some papers at the GSA site recently and came across one describing giant gypsum crystals that were discovered in a Mexican cavern that was penetrated by mining operations near Naica, Mexico several years ago. The crystals were formed in an interesting environment. Being a confessed troglodyte, the paper immediately caught my attention. It is is worth a read if you have access. Here is a link to the abstract.

I thought some people here would enjoy seeing more pictures, since most everyone I directed to the pictures was duly impressed. You can Google for additional pictures and other information, but the cave was recently explored by the Italian La Venta explorers, and they have posted some of the best photographs. You can also read their expedition log and find a few more pictures here. The environment is at about 60 degrees C, with 100% humidity, so you can imagine that exploring here and doing science is on the extreme edge.

If it was not for the fact that the mining operation is pumping out groundwater at something like 1000 liters/minute, this cavern would be submerged in hot water, and the crystals would still be growing. When the mining operation stops, so will pumping, and these natural wonders will again become inaccessible. I hope some museums are bidding for a few specimens to place in specially climate-controlled exhibits. Any contributions to the clink jar will be donated to a favorite geological charity.

[nprev]

..Good God!!! That is arguably the most incredible thing I've ever seen, period, CR. Reminds me of the wonderful 1960s movie version of Journey to the Center of the Earth.

If the government of Mexico and/or the private interests who own the mine have any sense, they'll keeo pumping when the mining's done and maintain & market the site as a select ecotourism location. This will keep the local economy booming long, long after the last bit of ore is extracted from the mines. All us aging baby-boomers who truly dug the movie I just mentioned would kill for a look at this, 60 deg C./100% humidity or not!

EDIT: Forgot to add <clink exp googleplex>...I'll send you a check. Even my girlfriend, normally unimpressed with things scientific, was astonished at this and emitted a few clinks of her own...

[edstrick]

First mentions that I saw on this showed up a vew years ago and has been covered by National Speleological Society <NSS> and other caving publications, but while cavers can torture themselves mechanically by pushing through the most unfriendly groad-holes, they're no more able than the average citizen to stand being poached and parboiled. Also, since the "cave-geode" is accessed through a mine, it's not a usual caving opportunity and it's taken time for interest to rise and some group to get the funding and cooperation setup for real investigation... It's a gosh-wow-boy-oh-boy place, for sure.

[CosmicRocker]

Yeah, it would be a tough attraction to make accessible to the public. From what I have read, they seem to be trying to prevent these rarities from suffering the same dehydration fate suffered by some of the crystals discovered in shallower galleries in the past. Some webcams might be one way to do it, short of excavating parts of it for a museum.

I remember being amazed by the smaller crystals that were discovered many years ago in the Cave of the Swords, and probably others found in the shallower reaches of the mine. There were some reports of those crystals dehydrating and becoming opaque. I have some candle holders that were apparently cut from some of the 6 inch crystals from this district. One of them has developed an opaque area, caused by the proximity of a candle flame on one occasion.

edstrick: I haven't been a member of the NSS since the early 70's, so I probably didn't notice their mentioning of this. It sounds like I need to rejoin. I'd be willing to suffer parboiling to visit this cave.

nprev: Journey to the Center of the Earth was one of my favorite movies of all time. Thanks for reminding me.

[Stu]

AMAZING pic, wow!

I think Superman's gonna be upset tho when he finds out someone's been taking pics inside his Fortress of Solitude...

[edstrick]

"...I haven't been a member of the NSS since the early 70's, ..."
I was a member then, too some-weird-how I can remember my NSS number from then, 12393 (i think) Niagara Frontier Grotto. Haven't been a member in a LONG LOOOONG time, but my brothers are both members, one very active.

As my oldest brother calls the caver-NSS... "The OTHER NSS"... when talking with space-NSS folk!

[nprev]

(sigh)...yeah, I see your point, CR; hard to keep the required environment pristine with tourists tramping in & all the necessary climactic accomodations needed to keep them from keeling over. Only reason I thought of it was as a way to keep preservation an economically attractive option.

Still, the powers-that-be should consider making it a UN World Heritage Site, at least. This is incredible, and we're unlikely to find its like again...

[edstrick]

My middle-brother just got back from a weekend caving trip in Mexico <cave hunting and shredded-tire replacing (3 of them!), mostly>.
He said that the mine is running out of ore and profitably and is expected to close in about a couple years. They'll stop the pumps, the chamber will reflood, and hopefully the crystals will resume growing.

[CosmicRocker]

I'm open to any scheme that might be able to keep them accessible while preserving them. I'd sure like to see them in person some day. But the information I found while researching them strongly suggested the mine had limited remaining life, and that the pumps would stop when mining stops.

I've got to imagine that a few of those crystals will be removed and sold to museums and/or collectors before they cut off the pumps. Their cost would probably be well beyond my means, but can you imagine putting one of them in your living room and outfitting it with adjustable illumination?

[dburt]

Hey you-all,

I used to be an active member of NSS too in college, but eventually gave up caving when they started paying me big bucks to go underground in mines (then it was too much like a busman's holiday). I once toured a small silver mine in that part of Mexico. It was in a still-active hot spring. The miners, all males, wore only a hardhat and handkerchiefs hung strategically over their lampbelt. Every half hour or so they'd go stand by the mineshaft to slug a liter of water and enjoy the little bit of cooler air that dropped down the open shaft. Hardly an ideal tourist destination.

--HDP Don

[Bill Harris]

>I've got to imagine that a few of those crystals will be removed and sold to museums and/or collectors before they cut off the pumps...

Since the mining itself has changed the groundwater chemistry and movement these crystal deposits are probably short-lived after the mine is abandoned. Wild idea would be for someone with beau coup funds to make dioramas of the significant crystal occurances for display in a nearby museum facility. Rather a speleological Abu Simbel, no?

--Bill

[CosmicRocker]

Bill: Moving it or part of it as they did Abu Simbel would be incredibly expensive, but removing the individual crystals probably wouldn't. I hope they manage to get at least some of the crystals into museums. It's good to see you back; we've missed you. BTW, how are you enjoying retirement? I was planning to retire at the end of the year, but then I realized that if I worked one day into 2008, they'd have to pay me an additional 6 weeks of vacation time.

Her Doktor: I'm glad to see you have the time to visit other corners of the forum. What do you think about the long term stability of these gypsum crystals if removed from their current environment? Might they dehydrate?

All this reminiscing about the NSS had me looking for my old caving pictures and stuff, but all I've managed to locate so far is my old NSS belt buckle. I used to spelunk mostly in central Indiana. Where did the rest of you explore caves, and does anyone have any good caving stories?

[dburt]

Her Doktor: I'm glad to see you have the time to visit other corners of the forum. What do you think about the long term stability of these gypsum crystals if removed from their current environment? Might they dehydrate?

I used to spelunk mostly in central Indiana. Where did the rest of you explore caves, and does anyone have any good caving stories?

CosmicRocker - When I was a grad student, there were some giant gypsum crystals from the initial 1920s discovery (Cave of the Swords) in that same mine at the Harvard mineralogy museum. So they should be perfectly stable if you keep them out of the Arizona sun in the summer, and do a little to maintain temperature and humidity. Remember, ordinary wallboard is made out of gypsum (usually with a coating of paint). Excavating and transporting them would probably be the major problem - very soft crystals (hardness only 2 out of 10) with excellent cleavage.

Most of my old caving was in West Virginia and Virginia in the early 1960's with carbide lamps and very muddy coveralls and occasional winter camping underground (complete with panic-inducing midnight visits by skunks), plus the usual undergraduate hi-jinks.

And now that the other thread has been closed, the professorator has some spare time...

--HDP Don

[edstrick]

>grins at dburt<

"I "Yo-yo'd" Hellhole in WVA about 1969 or 71. Niagara frontier grotto'd make a caving trip or two each fall down to Pa of WVa. Blacksburg NSS convention somtime around 71.. infinite amounts of mud in the campground

[MouseOnMars]

We never did this crystal growing experiment in Science classes ! Ha! Ha!

The bench would have collapsed and .... well ....

This reminds me of a Cave I went into in the Petén, Guatemala. Just near the Finca I was staying at. Not on the same scale as this, but just within the light inside the cavern were these huge ceiling to floor formations that were hollow. When you tapped them they were the most exquisite musical instruments that you could play !

Nearby were what I thought were tree roots growing along the cave walls. When I looked a bit closer they were actually little ant "highways". Tubes with ants scurrying along them. I was thinking, what are you all doing in here ??

Will the wonders never cease ?

mouseonmars