My Assistant
T42 Flyby (March 25, 2008) |
Mar 20 2008, 10:39 PM
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#1
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
T42 Mission description now up.
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/prod...description.pdf Imaging highlights:
-Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Mar 20 2008, 11:00 PM
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#2
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
Here is the Looking Ahead article: http://ciclops.org/view.php?id=4882
-------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Mar 26 2008, 06:00 PM
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3652 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
The Cassini-Huygens site just brought a smile to my face with this image:
![]() QUOTE With apologies to Douglas Adams, author of the classic science fiction novel "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy": Earth is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the galaxy. The sapient life forms on Earth are currently sending primitive technology to study the most spectacular planet in the Sun's system: Saturn. On this day, the primitive technology, will fly by Titan, the most Earth-like moon in that solar system. While Earth has been deemed "mostly harmless," the jury is still out on Titan. A little humor never hurt anyone. On a side note, the Enceladus press conference on NASA TV (Media channel) is about to start. -------------------- |
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Mar 27 2008, 10:34 AM
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#4
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1015 Joined: 4-March 04 Member No.: 47 |
lovely layers (with detached haze the main one): http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/imag...iImageID=146915
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Mar 27 2008, 04:52 PM
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#5
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
Mosaic of NAC images over Adiri, part of N Belet Cyclops, Sliced carrot of NW Shangri-La and the Dancing Monkey feature:
Boy, was this a challenge... Is there a new seasonal haze layer developing? Most of these features were barely discernible. It took awhile to identify Adiri and the Sliced Carrot. The Dancing Monkey feature is almost obscured. -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Mar 27 2008, 06:21 PM
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#6
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
T42 Dancing Monkey mosaic. (I think this is how they go together.)
It is really hard to tell if I got this right... -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Mar 30 2008, 02:29 AM
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#7
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
Nice! A long distance shot received yesterday has a view of the rarely imaged part of Titan around 300 W longitude.
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/imag...iImageID=147170 In this image you can see NW Belet and a very suspicious looking inky dark stain on the surface just to the N. And you can also see a few N polar clouds, too!! -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Mar 30 2008, 02:53 PM
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#8
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Newbie ![]() Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 1-July 05 Member No.: 425 |
idle hands...
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd78/al...ushjobsmall.jpg (flyby42rushjobmedium.jpg for medium) various skews for interest |
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Mar 30 2008, 03:44 PM
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#9
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
various skews for interest Nice enhancement of the clouds! Those clouds don't seem very circumpolar. They don't follow the terminator very well and seem pretty straight. It raises the possibility that the clouds may be orographically related. There are ridges up there that run roughly parallel and in the same orientation as the the cloud streaks. These ridges were observed in the T21 RADAR swath. -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Mar 30 2008, 06:54 PM
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#10
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3516 Joined: 4-November 05 From: North Wales Member No.: 542 |
Is that the toe-of-Italy shaped arm of the big northern lake just appearing to the left of the cloud?
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Mar 30 2008, 08:46 PM
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#11
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
QUOTE Is that the toe-of-Italy shaped arm of the big northern lake just appearing to the left of the cloud? Yes QUOTE It raises the possibility that the clouds may be orographically related. There are ridges up there that run roughly parallel and in the same orientation as the the cloud streaks. These ridges were observed in the T21 RADAR swath. Those clouds are too far to the north and west. Besides, these clouds are more than likely similar to the mid-latitude clouds in the south, which are also not orogenic. -------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Mar 31 2008, 03:19 AM
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#12
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
Curiosity got the better of me....
So where are these clouds anyway? And with all that RADAR coverage up north, can we figure what kind of terrain is beneath them? Here is a graphic showing the north polar RADAR swaths overlaid on a grid that shows the RADAR swath names and latitude and longitude. (At the very top right is just barely seen the T19 Swath). Similar clouds were observed in the same location in PIA08365 as in images taken during T42. PIA08364 shows a ISS and RADAR images with an outline of the big north polar lake. (According to the catalog page, the ISS image was taken on February 25, 2007). That might indicate a long-lived cloud at this location or this may just be great place to make clouds. Here is a graphic with the north polar RADAR swaths overlaid on PIA08366. The T30 RADAR Swath should have imaged some of the terrain that underlies the clouds. Here is a graphic with the T30 RADAR Swath and the outline of the cloud. The dark section of lake was used to make the correct line-up. Here is a graphic of the T30 RADAR swath showing the location of the clouds. Also a zoom region. The terrain type is pretty non-descript, many blobby features, possibly some type of dried lakebed type terrain or it could be canyon or it could be plains as well. Who knows? There are some channel-like features barely discernable which seem to flow from left to right across the zoomed image. If there was any type of topographic rise parallel to the clouds, the channel-like features would need to cut through them. At the lower left in the zoomed image (zoomed further in the inset) there are bright streaks that may be aeolian deposits. There are no obvious tectonic ridges in this area. -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Mar 31 2008, 09:25 AM
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#13
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3516 Joined: 4-November 05 From: North Wales Member No.: 542 |
The southern margins of the great lake could be an area where there is higher than average evaporation of methane from the surface, leading to cloud formation down-wind (???)
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Apr 2 2008, 07:44 AM
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#14
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
I believe the clouds coincide with the margin of the huge polar ethane/methane cloud beautifully imaged (PIA09171) by VIMS on 2/1/07. This polar cloud seems to be a persistent feature (although may change as Titan's north pole passes from winter to springtime) and was observed to reach to 62 degrees N latitude at all observed longitudes. Polar atmospheric weather/temperature conditions must be more important than surface topography in producing the clouds.
Speaking of topography, Planetary Photojournal has just put up a nice topographic map of a strip of the N polar region (PIA10353) covering that fascinating region with seas, islands and great rivers! |
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Apr 2 2008, 05:30 PM
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#15
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
Welcome to UMSF, titanicrivers!
There were also clouds imaged in the southern hemisphere of Titan as well. An image of these can be found on the VIMS website: http://wwwvims.lpl.arizona.edu/whatsnew.html There is also a cool movie as well from the T17 flyby. A few frames show apparent movement of the cloud features. According to the captions the blue/white VIMS color in these images corresponds to liquid methane clouds at 10-30 km altitude. I would suspect that the clouds in the VIMS north polar image would be at the same altitude. (Anyone know?) 10-30 km altitude is pretty high up there. This is about the same level as polar stratospheric clouds (nacreous clouds) in Earth's atmosphere. From Wikipedia \Polar stratospheric cloud : "In the Northern hemisphere, the generation of lee waves by mountains may locally cool the lower stratosphere and lead to the formation of PSCs." So even clouds at that altitude could feel the effects of topography. I would add that a converging surface windfield on Titan possibly indicated by mid-latitude dune orientations might also cause enough of a "bump" in the atmosphere that it could trigger polar cloud formation. (See this post for possible evidence of converging surface winds in higher latitudes). {BTW, does anyone know the location of the thicker knot of clouds in the PIA09171 image? When I tried to guesstimate using the terminator and the mission description I came up with a rough guess of [65N, 100W]} -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Apr 2 2008, 06:13 PM
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#16
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
Keep in mind that the scale height of Titan atmosphere is greater than on Earth, so corresponding clouds would be higher up in Titan's atmosphere than they are on Earth. So the streak clouds ISS and VIMS see are equivalent to cumulus or stratocumulus clouds seen on Earth. Don't know what the altitude of the VIMS ethane cloud is/was, but I think it is also in the troposphere. also note that Titanian mountains are also lower in height than here on earth, so their effect on cloud formation would be reduced compared to Earth.
Topography might have some effect on cloud formation on Titan, but so far we haven't seen convincing evidence for it. The fact that most have preferred latitudinal bands and have similar morphologies despite differing cloud locations suggest that they are related to atmospheric circulation patterns. titanicrivers, do you know if VIMS still sees the ethane polar cloud? We have been getting good data over the north polar region for a year now and we haven't see it (though that doesn't mean it isn't there, just that nothing is obscuring the surface at 938 nm over the north polar region). -------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Apr 2 2008, 07:32 PM
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#17
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1015 Joined: 4-March 04 Member No.: 47 |
The ethane cloud was between 30-50 km according to the paper, which is the upper edge of the troposphere. It is probably created by a different mechanism than the mid-latitude clouds though. The polar 'mammoth' cloud ( http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-010 ) is an ethane cloud too, apparently.
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Apr 2 2008, 07:59 PM
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#18
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
A diagram cross-section of Titan's atmosphere can be seen here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a...anAtmDetail.jpg
A more detailed figure is presented in the 20060926 CHARM presentation, freely available here (Warning: long download - it choked up my machine) The little puffy clouds in the diagram are CH4 clouds, I assume the higher altitude stratiform clouds in the diagram would indicate the ethane clouds. -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Apr 4 2008, 01:59 AM
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#19
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
Thanks for the welcome message!
I have been combing the VIMS images trying to see if the ethane cloud is present currently. I do not know. The north polar atmosphere is very active on most of the wide field np imaging in blue/violet/uv light mainly showing the banded pattern at high altitudes and dark 'polar hood' in visible light. What makes up the hood? Is it the big ethane cloud? I did find an interesting article in Science on Titan's polar weather by Flasar. I'll try to include part of it as an attachment as to me (not an atmospheric scientist at all!) it seems to provide an explanation for atmospheric cloud development at the edge (i.e. around 60-65 degrees N) of the descending air mass over the cold N pole. Made me wonder if relatively warmer air from mid N latitudes is moving up over the descending cold polar air producing methane clouds that are banded due to the super-rotation of Titan's atmosphere.
Titanpolarweather.doc ( 38K )
Number of downloads: 402 |
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Apr 4 2008, 08:40 AM
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#20
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1015 Joined: 4-March 04 Member No.: 47 |
The polar hood is thought to be a large concentration of haze particles at the pole, caused by the same mechanism as described by the Flasar overview (descending motion bringing enriched air to altitudes where you can see it). Lots of pretty pictures of the polar hood are on the cassini raw images site
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/imag...iImageID=147157 Note that in the troposphere, where this methane (?) cloud at the edge seems to be, is not necessarily that much colder at the poles than at a few latitudes lower. If I remember correctly, the ground temperature only changes by at most a few degrees over the globe and changes slowly with latitude . |
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Apr 5 2008, 11:59 PM
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#21
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
Thanks for the reminder that many factors go into producing Titan's clouds. Roe et al (see excerpt below) in their discussion about the southern mid latitude clouds put forth the various mechanisms for the clouds they observed with Keck and other earth based telescopes. They did comment that south pole clouds had to do with ground warming-enhancing methane/ethane evaporation from the terrain. Not sure what kind of temperatures they were inferring. Perhaps in the north polar region there is the added methane/ethane evaporation from the substantial bodies of liquid there, the haze particle enrichment and the collision of air masses that all add together to produce the clouds.
"There are several ways to form clouds on Titan. These include: - Wind blowing across a raised surface feature (such as a mountain). These are called "orographic clouds" and are often observed here on Earth (in Hawaii and along the west coast of the U.S.). - Heating the surface. If the surface temperature is raised a few degrees this forces slightly stronger convection in the lowest layer of the atmosphere, which can lead to methane condensation and the formation of convective clouds. This is similar to what happens on Earth in the southwest United States during late summer when the sun heats the desert floor during the day and can generate huge thunderstorms. This is the mechanism thought to form the south polar clouds on Titan that we have been observing for several years. - Circulation patterns that generate uplift regions. In regions where surface winds converge you get uplift (all that colliding air has to go somewhere). As the air is pushed upward it cools and this can trigger cloud formation. On Earth we see this type of phenomenon near the equator. - Injecting methane. Titan's atmosphere near the surface is not usually saturated with methane, but if there is a mechanism that injects a bunch of gaseous methane into the lower atmosphere and saturates the atmosphere with methane, then clouds will form. "(source Geographic control of Titan's mid-latitude clouds H.G. Roe, M.E. Brown, E.L. Schaller, A.H. Bouchez, & C.A. Trujillo) |
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Apr 6 2008, 10:41 PM
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#22
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2530 Joined: 20-April 05 Member No.: 321 |
On the orographic clouds...
The mention of clouds caused by high mountains is good for providing an example of the dramatic, but terrain can have big effects with much more subtle variation in terrain, too. Columbus, OH and Pittsburgh, PA are roughly on the same windstreams. They are about 250 km apart, almost exactly east-west of one another, in an area where the winds almost always blow from the west. Columbus has an elevation of 275 m. Pittsburgh's elevation is 372, with surrounding ridges reaching elevations of about 650 meters. That's a very subtle climb over that distance. Columbus has 72 sunny days a year to Pittsburgh's 59. Columbus averages 137 days with precipitation to Pittsburgh's 152. So I wouldn't discount the possibility of terrain, even inclinations that seem minor, having a significant role in cloud creation. I speculate that the increased scale height of Titan also means that clouds originating low can survive to climb high. On the other hand, big lakes can have much the same effect. Milwaukee, WI and Grand Rapids, MI are also close to one another on an east-west line, but with Lake Michigan lying between them. Milwaukee averages 125 days of precipitation to Grand Rapids' 144. Grand Rapids has 64 sunny days a year to Milwaukee's 90. So, just to compare two terrestrial cases, the lake has a bigger impact than the terrain. |
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Apr 9 2008, 03:27 AM
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#23
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
Interesting. There's some topography and lakes around 65 N however the big ethane cloud covered the entire NP out to 65 N at all longitudes visible suggesting its not local ground conditions controlling it.
Re the mid southern latitude clouds is the consensus now that these are orographic clouds related to the mountain range near W0 and S lat 40? We are yet to see a radar pass over the highest part of those N-S trending peaks as far as I can fathom. Should be a priority for a SAR pass in the extended mission I hope. |
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Apr 9 2008, 03:48 AM
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#24
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
Interesting. There's some topography and lakes around 65 N however the big ethane cloud covered the entire NP out to 65 N at all longitudes visible suggesting its not local ground conditions controlling it. The north polar ethane hood cloud VIMS sees might be related to the haze layer variations that ISS sees in the north.QUOTE Re the mid southern latitude clouds is the consensus now that these are orographic clouds related to the mountain range near W0 and S lat 40? We are yet to see a radar pass over the highest part of those N-S trending peaks as far as I can fathom. Should be a priority for a SAR pass in the extended mission I hope. No, it is not the consensus because those mountain chains may or may not exist. my bet is on not existing, or that those bright streaks are not mountains, anyway. Not to mention that we see other cloud systems at the same latitude but at a variety of different longitudes.-------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Apr 11 2008, 04:09 AM
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#25
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
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Apr 11 2008, 04:23 AM
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#26
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
Well, let's just say there is disagreement about those. There are bright streaks in that area. The VIMS data suggest they are mountains based on apparent shading that seems consistent with them being topographic highs. However, ISS also sees many of these supposed shadows (ISS doesn't see topographic shading on Titan due to the higher atmospheric scattering at 938 nm, the wavelength ISS uses to see the surface) and see many bright and dark features in the region (that may look like shading at VIMS' lower resolution).
A few possible alternatives are that these are fresh fractures on Titan surface, with cleaner water ice/ammonia hydrates (akin to the fractures on Dione and Rhea) or these maybe fissures where such material has been extruded from the interior. -------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Apr 11 2008, 01:28 PM
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#27
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 23-February 07 From: Occasionally in Columbia, MD Member No.: 1764 |
Well, let's just say there is disagreement about those. There are bright streaks in that area. The VIMS data suggest they are mountains based on apparent shading that seems consistent with them being topographic highs. .... Hmm, if only there were a less ambiguous remote sensing technique that could probe the surface while being unaffected by the atmosphere? Maybe you could even time echos to measure heights directly - like sonar, but maybe with radio waves or something...? |
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Apr 11 2008, 02:02 PM
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#28
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1015 Joined: 4-March 04 Member No.: 47 |
So, is this area going to be observed by SAR then such that it allows topography extraction? (like http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001385/ ) |
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Apr 11 2008, 02:28 PM
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#29
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1599 Joined: 14-October 05 From: Vermont Member No.: 530 |
Hmm, if only there were a less ambiguous remote sensing technique that could probe the surface while being unaffected by the atmosphere? Maybe you could even time echos to measure heights directly - like sonar What kind of acoustical sensors are you suggesting for the next Titan probe? |
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Apr 11 2008, 03:45 PM
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#30
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
Hmm, if only there were a less ambiguous remote sensing technique that could probe the surface while being unaffected by the atmosphere? Maybe you could even time echos to measure heights directly - like sonar, but maybe with radio waves or something...? Yes, but I don't think the whales would survive the trip. -------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Apr 11 2008, 04:17 PM
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#31
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14457 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
That's what the situation needs. Heavily instrumented large aquatic mammals.
Or SAR. |
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Apr 11 2008, 04:49 PM
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#32
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Merciless Robot ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 8791 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
(Trying to imagine designing a spacesuit for a sperm whale.)
(Trying to imagine persuading a whale to get into the suit.) (Trying to imagine getting a whale into LEO, let alone landed in a Titanian sea...) <BOOM!> (Head explodes.) Yeah, gotta go with SAR, here, definitely... -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Apr 11 2008, 04:57 PM
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#33
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3652 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
(Trying to imagine getting a whale into LEO, let alone landed in a Titanian sea...) If only we had Cptn. Kirk here, we wouldn't have to worry about things like these. -------------------- |
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Apr 11 2008, 04:59 PM
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#34
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
How about a dolphin? I'm sure a dolphin could produce higher resolution sonar imaging than this SAR you speak of.
-------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Apr 11 2008, 05:04 PM
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#35
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Merciless Robot ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 8791 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
(Trying to imagine teaching any given cetecean how to use zero-gee sanitary facilities.)
(Trying to imagine teaching one to describe sonar results in any fashion, let alone with scientific rigor.) Nope. Still gotta go with SAR. -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Apr 11 2008, 05:20 PM
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#36
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
Now Flipper, squeak once if you see a mountain. Squeak twice if you see a lake. Squeak three times if you see dunes.
Okay, this has gotten too silly. -------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Apr 11 2008, 05:23 PM
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#37
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
".....so long and thanks for all the fish!"
-------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Apr 11 2008, 08:10 PM
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#38
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 646 Joined: 23-December 05 From: Forest of Dean Member No.: 617 |
(Trying to imagine designing a spacesuit for a sperm whale.) (Trying to imagine persuading a whale to get into the suit.) Cetacean EDL would be a bit of a challenge, and likely to alter the topology it was trying the measure (not to mention creating a new surface feature.) A bowl of petunias, on the other hand, wouldn't need a spacesuit. It's telemetry would be terser, though. -------------------- --
Viva software libre! |
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Apr 11 2008, 08:29 PM
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#39
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
With frequent clouds in the area (and perhaps methane-ethane rain) and SAR's capability to show drainage patterns and lakes ONE radar pass centered on these potential mountain chains should go a long way to resolve any question as to their existence I would think. And a SECOND overlapping SAR pass might allow a USGS topo map to be constructed (like we now have up north, PIA10353) which should nail down their actual elevation.
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Apr 12 2008, 07:07 AM
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#40
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1870 Joined: 20-February 05 Member No.: 174 |
"...Cetacean EDL would be a bit of a challenge,..."
They're already shaped <delphinids, that is> like a wingless shuttle. Just glue a whole bunch of thermal tiles on the victim... then ... OUT THE AIRLOCK! <you may shoot me now....> |
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Apr 14 2008, 01:12 AM
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#41
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
Are there any planned SAR's of the possible mountain chain in the extended mission?
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Apr 21 2008, 07:17 AM
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#42
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
Are there any planned SAR's of the possible mountain chain in the extended mission? Well .......yes it appears so! I have cut a screen from the 'Tour Designers' a video post on the Cassini web site from several days ago. The extended mission tour selected has 26 Titan flybys and they are shown on the attached png file. I've added a red 'mountain' caret at the approximate location of the 'Titan Sierras'as they are located on the Titan Virtual Tour map which is in the right column of the Cassini home page. In fact it appears portions of many passes will cover the possible range presumably with several SAR at different angles so as to produce topographic maps. Nice! |
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Apr 22 2008, 07:07 PM
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#43
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 23-February 07 From: Occasionally in Columbia, MD Member No.: 1764 |
Well .......yes it appears so! I have cut a screen from the 'Tour Designers' a video post on the Cassini web site from several days ago. The extended mission tour selected has 26 Titan flybys and they are shown on the attached png file. I've added a red 'mountain' caret at the approximate location of the 'Titan Sierras'as they are located on the Titan Virtual Tour map which is in the right column of the Cassini home page. In fact it appears portions of many passes will cover the possible range presumably with several SAR at different angles so as to produce topographic maps. Nice! These are spacecraft groundtracks of all the flybys. Only a fraction of those are planned for radar, and it is not yet decided for all of those whether we are left -look, right-look (for which the tracks give only a crude guide to location) or altimetry. I am not sure we will get that particular mountain range or not - that's a detailed pointing design issue that we will only get to closer to the time of the relevant pass (if there is a relevant pass). But indeed the XM will give us much better coverage of the southern hemisphere which the nominal mission has barely touched. |
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Apr 22 2008, 08:27 PM
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#44
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Solar System Cartographer ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10265 Joined: 5-April 05 From: Canada Member No.: 227 |
This is a composite of the primary mission and extended mission radar maps modified from Linda Spilker's OPAG presentation. The blue bands are primary mission tracks, the red are extended mission tracks.
Phil -------------------- ... because the Solar System ain't gonna map itself.
Also to be found posting similar content on https://mastodon.social/@PhilStooke Maps for download (free PDF: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Cartography.pdf NOTE: everything created by me which I post on UMSF is considered to be in the public domain (NOT CC, public domain) |
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Apr 22 2008, 09:04 PM
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#45
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
Looks like there will be heavy coverage of the southern blandlands terrain. I really hope there is something discernible down there...
(although the swath terminii in NE Shangri-La might be pretty cool - hopefully it will still have high resolution) The two swaths across Belet are interesting. Any idea when these occur? -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Apr 23 2008, 07:44 AM
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#46
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
This is a composite of the primary mission and extended mission radar maps modified from Linda Spilker's OPAG presentation. The blue bands are primary mission tracks, the red are extended mission tracks. Phil Hmmm.... L.S. OPAG map of SAR coverage (centered closer to 180 deg longitude) suggests little coverage at the possible mountain range site (which lies closer to 300 deg longitude) on the left side of that map. May have to wait until the XXM! |
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Apr 24 2008, 12:00 AM
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#47
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
Looks like there will be heavy coverage of the southern blandlands terrain. I really hope there is something discernible down there... (although the swath terminii in NE Shangri-La might be pretty cool - hopefully it will still have high resolution) The two swaths across Belet are interesting. Any idea when these occur? I don't know about the Belet passes, but I think the southern passes might be interesting. The T7 SAR swath of Sept 2005 was one of my favorites showing rain dissected plains, Titan canyonlands with impressive rivers, a large delta and finally a probable shoreline of a partially drained lake. Suspect we'll see more of the same on some of the XM passes. |
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Apr 25 2008, 04:06 AM
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#48
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
I don't know about the Belet passes, but I think the southern passes might be interesting. The T7 SAR swath of Sept 2005 was one of my favorites showing rain dissected plains, Titan canyonlands with impressive rivers, a large delta and finally a probable shoreline of a partially drained lake. Suspect we'll see more of the same on some of the XM passes. I think anything over a basin gives a great contrast and allows a nice high contrast RADAR (and ISS, too) view of the actual surface. IMHO these give the easiest and most accessible information to try to tease out the intricacies of Titan. It's the lowest hanging fruit of a really difficult tree. Regions outside the equatorial zones (30N-30S) that aren't basins or lakes may be covered by deposits and drifts of atmospheric organic schizzle that show low contrast and may be pretty much buried. It doesn't mean that they are totally boring, just that many of the features will be less easy to interpret. If stuff is indeed buried by a thick layer, then other cool techniques like radiometry, scatterometry, dielectric constant measurements, and VIMS might reveal a pretty uniform surface ("it all looks like schizzle, cap'n!".). [Ground penetrating RADAR, however, would be really useful here.] The southern part of the T7 Swath dips into Mezzoramia Basin and shows pretty cool features. (Note that even these seem to have less contrast than areas in T8 Belet or T13 Xanadu Swaths.) But if you look at the northern section of T7, and the southernmost sectinion of T25, it's pretty bland in comparison; this might be typical. I worry that temperate zone SAR strips (or other experiments) outside the Mezzoramia basin might not be easy to figure out. Heck, while I'm just glad that we have more Titan passes in the XM, I'm hoping that there is flexibility (given orbital constraints and other experiment needs) to allow more SAR coverage in the Equatorial zones in either the XM or XXM. (I'm also hoping that I'm totally wrong and that there are lots of cool and obvious features in the current plan). If there were a choice, I'd put my money on Equatorial zone imaging and go for the low hanging fruit. -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Apr 27 2008, 05:02 PM
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#49
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
Some images from the April 26, 2008 Distant targeted flyby are down.
[attachment=14107:April_28...ed_flyby.jpg] I tried to contrast-enhance and make a mosaic from two of the images. I'm not sure exactly what part of Titan we are looking at. Since there are no obvious dark zones, it must be in the high latitudes (either N or S). I'm guessing that the very subtle dark stain might be the N Polar Sea (Kraken Mare). Some high latitude clouds along the terminator might be visible. -Mike (Links to original images N00107967 and N00107965.) -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Apr 27 2008, 08:55 PM
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#50
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3516 Joined: 4-November 05 From: North Wales Member No.: 542 |
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Apr 27 2008, 09:33 PM
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#51
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
-------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Apr 28 2008, 08:34 AM
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#52
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3516 Joined: 4-November 05 From: North Wales Member No.: 542 |
That's better. Not sure about your identification of Kraken Mare though - it looks too far from the terminator and I can't make the shape fit.
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Apr 28 2008, 02:16 PM
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#53
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
Yeah. I'm not sure about ANY of it. It is such a low contrast image, I kinda figured we were looking down on one of the poles.
Anyone know the geometry of the image? It was taken April 26, 2008. -Mike -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Apr 28 2008, 02:56 PM
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#54
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
Nope, Kraken Mare is not visible in that image. That mosaic covers the north polar region and the anti-Saturn hemisphere:
-------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Apr 28 2008, 03:18 PM
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#55
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
Awesome! Thanks VP!
So that bright splot corresponds to Dilmun. And the darkish zones are the upper NW reaches of Shangri-La Basin. -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Apr 29 2008, 01:20 PM
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#56
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3516 Joined: 4-November 05 From: North Wales Member No.: 542 |
A description and simulated view for this observation have now appeared on Ciclops 'looking ahead'.
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Apr 29 2008, 02:40 PM
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#57
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![]() Junior Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 6-September 05 From: Paderborn, Germany Member No.: 484 |
@VP
Is your Celestia Titan map downloadable somewhere? I would love to download it! It's really awesome. -------------------- --- Under Construction ---
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May 2 2008, 09:27 AM
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#58
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1015 Joined: 4-March 04 Member No.: 47 |
QUOTE titanicrivers, do you know if VIMS still sees the ethane polar cloud? We have been getting good data over the north polar region for a year now and we haven't see it (though that doesn't mean it isn't there, just that nothing is obscuring the surface at 938 nm over the north polar region). I did some browsing through PDS and here's a VIMS image for T26. The cloud vaguely looks like a bulls-eye pattern. I haven't yet had a look at more recent ones. |
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May 3 2008, 08:37 AM
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#59
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
Thanks, I hadn't seen that image! I enhanced and rotated the image to put North at top below and compare it with The hi res VIMS image taken 12/28/06 during T22 flyby. The cloud was present and unchanged on the Jan 13, 2007 flyby and in the T26 image from 3/10/07 the cloud extent appears similar. It's estimated to cover about 6.7% of Titan surface. It is predicted to be a persistent seasonal feature for another few years and then dissipate as winter turns to spring in Titan's N hemisphere. It will be interesting if the cloud can be monitored with VIMS in the XM during the Titan approach phases using the same 'limb scanning strategy' as was used during T22.
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May 5 2008, 12:33 PM
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#60
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1015 Joined: 4-March 04 Member No.: 47 |
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May 5 2008, 12:50 PM
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#61
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Guests |
Any ideas why they no longer seem to be releasing SAR images?
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May 5 2008, 02:16 PM
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#62
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
Some more from T30 and T32. It seems the mid-latitude cloud activity was up again in those days...glimmering like diamonds
[/quote] Terrific images. I'll have to learn to use the PDS site. Thanks. Note the N polar cloud appears intact on both T30 and T32. |
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May 5 2008, 10:56 PM
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#63
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 1-April 08 From: Minnesota ! Member No.: 4081 |
1649TitanNpolarcloud.pdf ( 585.73K )
Number of downloads: 264Here's a recent presentation on this subject from which I obtained my information. |
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