[X] My Assistant

[djellison]

This thread is for discussions AFTER the next press conf.

Doug

[Tesheiner]

Next update briefing on NASA TV is scheduled to 2pm EDT (6pm UTC).
Source: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html

[kungpostyle]

Wow, MRO caught Phoenix in flight!

[David S.]

Amazing !!!

[remcook]

yeah, amazing!!

[Bjorn Jonsson]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I know you don't like our engineering images" - Barry Goldstein

[djellison]

LOVING the 'odd couple' double act with Barry and Pete

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[remcook]

is that enhanced? it looks even better than the released image

[TheChemist]

OMG, it is good that I only have to type.
Having problems speaking after looking at that HiRise image !!!
Amazing !!!!

[djellison]

Straight from NASA. There's two versions - one is too stretched.

I would say that image is very close to the chute deployment - it doesn't - to my eyes - look 100% fully deployed.

Doug

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/image...-PHX_Lander.jpg

[elakdawalla]

I would say that image is very close to the chute deployment - it doesn't - to my eyes - look 100% fully deployed.

At high speed, would the chute have a different shape than at lower speed? (Don't know, just asking)

[remcook]

sunspot - that was the one i was looking at...far less details.

yeah, the parachute looks pretty small (not fully extended), but my guess would be that a parachute would be half-opened only for a second or so. hmmmm...

[bgarlick]

Was phoenix (while under parachute) near the edge of the MRO image? The animation in the press conference as it zoomed in seemed to indicate that Phoenix was very close to the edge of the image, which means that they may have been lucky to get an image at all and almost missed Could this be a result of it landing long?

(I.E. The press release image was a 420x446 crop of a much larger MRO image. Was this crop in the far right bottom corner, almost off the image, as it seemed to me from the zoom in animation?)

[mcaplinger]

At high speed, would the chute have a different shape than at lower speed? (Don't know, just asking)

Chutes are subject to partial opening ("squidding") in some speed regimes. I'm wondering if this may be some evidence of that.

[Tman]

I would say that image is very close to the chute deployment - it doesn't - to my eyes - look 100% fully deployed.

Agree, looks still more angular than round.

Wow!!!

[djellison]

It's a possibility - it would, after all, be a long shot to get it in that 1 or 2 seconds of deployment. Idle speculation (And I've got $5 that says that far field feature is the heatshied)

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[imipak]

scaled, no other processing.

[Ant103]

Incedible, just incredible, and amazing

[kungpostyle]

Yeah, the MER chutes had some serious squidding issues in the design phase. There is some footage of this in the wind tunnel tests somewhere.

[ElkGroveDan]

Emily has a good quality image up:

[remcook]

the more i look at that image, the more it looks like phoenix is hanging under a giant muffin!

[ElkGroveDan]

I was thinking how it looks like a jellyfish

[deglr6328]

Though they did have major squidding issues on the chute for the MERs I was under impression that the effect was much better understood now so if this MRO image is of squidding (as it does indeed look like it is) it either caught the chute JUST after deployment OR there is a ring included on the lines for the chute which forces squidding to occur at high speed until speed is lower so that tearing doesn't occur. A video of this mechanism is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAwET3Q9Og4 showing it on an emergency small plane chute. If this mechanism was included on the Phoenix EDL system it would DRASTICALLY increase the squidding time beyond the usual couple seconds intentionally..... though I don't know if this actually was part of the chute design. Here is a better video of the mechanism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt4biNan_JA

[ElkGroveDan]

Well Emily settled that - no squidding.

[remcook]

haha good pick-up emily! aaaah gotto love the internet. no squidding then

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Did I hear them correctly? Phoenix landed just outside the landing ellipse?

[deglr6328]

He didn't really giver her a committal answer at all though. I'm sure they have information on the exact time the image was taken and they obviously have the exact chute deployment time from Phoenix transmissions and the image is certainly of sufficiently high resolution to to make measurements on deployment completeness, so the question of what is going on in this picture should be definitively answered in due time when they've had a chance to more carefully look at things.

[Marcel]

What an amazing image. I am speechless. What humans can do !!!

The droptests on earth shows complete deployment in up to 15 seconds. In lower density (but higher speeds) i can imagine it takes even longer. But it looks like "the muffin" shows us it must have been taken in the first half of it's way down. I guess even on mars a parachute in equilibrium looks like a bowl, not like a muffin.

By the way: It's a pitty this doesn't work: looks like a new image to me of the workspace area, but i cannot open it !

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/.../testindex.html

Marcel

[fredk]

Stunning achievement, the parachute image. To my recollection, I'm not aware of any image of a spacecraft parachuting to Earth taken from Earth orbit. Can anyone correct me here? If I'm right, that would make this an even more remarkable achievement!

[pechisbeque]

By the way: It's a pitty this doesn't work: looks like a new image to me of the workspace area, but i cannot open it !

I thought the same at first, but I think is just a test page and that's a picture from one of the Mars Rovers!

[DFinfrock]

I don't even remember seeing images of the Shuttle, taken by an earth orbiter. And just think how many times that could have been tried.

It was great seeing Enily at the Press Conference. And even better that she could interact with UMSF during the conference, and then have the ammo for a final question. What a great forum.

[djellison]

By the way: It's a pitty this doesn't work: looks like a new image to me of the workspace area, but i cannot open it !

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/.../testindex.html

That looks a LOT like an ORT test to me. Earth based testing pictures, not new imagery from Phoenix. Don't expect any new images for another 5 hours or so.

[um3k]

Any suggestions for how to pass the time while waiting for new images?

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Don't expect any new images for another 5 hours or so.

5 Hours!!!!! And I didnt get to bed until 6.30am this morning lol

[ugordan]

Darn, Europe-friendly again...

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

I wonder if MPL landed outside of it's landing ellipse, so they may have been looking in the wrong place. Also, it will be interesting to see how the visibility of the hardware changes over many Martian seasons, it may givemore clues on what to look for at the MPL site..

[dvandorn]

Agreed on the issue of weathering parachutes, there, Sunspot. We know what the weathered Viking, MPF and MER 'chutes look like, but we've not seen one that was encased in dry ice for months and then "thawed" out.

-the other Doug

[dilo]

Merge of the two versions with smoothed terrain and artificial colors:

[bcory]

Stunning achievement, the parachute image. To my recollection, I'm not aware of any image of a spacecraft parachuting to Earth taken from Earth orbit. Can anyone correct me here? If I'm right, that would make this an even more remarkable achievement!

"This is the first time that a spacecraft has imaged the final descent of another spacecraft onto a planetary body. "

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php?fileID=9257

[nprev]

Marvelous...just utterly marvelous, is all. What an achievement!!!

[Gonzz]

To see that image and imagine Pheonix blazing through the athmosphere at high speed, bracing itself for landing, caught in that instant, is absolutely spellbinding

[tasp]

2 (?) ISS Soyuz missions ago, there was some nice footage of the capsule re-entry over earth's night side. The Soyuz re-entry module flight was not that spectacular, and as a manned vehicle, inappropriate for discussion here in any regard. However, the then unmanned orbital module was jettisoned and followed a similar trajectory and burned up very nicely. Amazing footage shot from orbit.

I don't think the footage ran past the 'burning up' part of the flight.

[tuvas]

It blows the mind to image how complex this must have been. Pointing the spacecraft at the right place, the right time, getting it to move the right speed (It is, after all, a pushbroom), all while keeping radio contact with the spacecraft... It blows the mind, for sure. Can't wait till the whole image is released to see if we can see the heat shield plummeting as well.

[Stu]

I take it there's no feedback re my idea that the bright feature seen on that Phoenix image might be a tall rock I pinpointed on a HiRISE image of the landing zone, then? Oh well, never mind. Maybe the new images - thought they were being released about now? - will shed some light on the matter... hope so... I'm really looking forward to seeing some more views of this intriguing landscape.

I'll have to catch up in the morning, I really need some sleep!

[MarsEngineer]

At high speed, would the chute have a different shape than at lower speed? (Don't know, just asking)

I'm glad you all like that image The MRO/HiRISE team is so amazing. A couple of folks from MRO contacted me a few weeks ago and told me how easy it would be to get and then they asked if I would try to make it happen .. so I did. It almost didn't happen (it was a very late request on my part), but I pushed for it ... although it IS a cool image, I wanted to means to vindicate the parachute in the unlikely event that we lost contact with PHX then had a bad landing day .... this would have proven that the parachute still deployed properly and hence would have not been an additional burden for the MSL EDL team. I am thankful that the image is now only "cool" and not a key data point for fault reconstruction. (oh I am so happy about landing too!!!! it was a blast last ... my knees almost gave out)

Emily, I heard your question (I am in Tuscon now - just flew in from Pasadena) in the press conference on the shape of the chute. The pixel count looks about right for a properly inflated parachute (I did the image estimation a couple of weeks ago) but I promise that we will do the math and check that it is not doing anything odd. We need to correlate the image time with the EDL timeline ... work ahead. The PHX EDL gang is converging at JPL next week to -ahem- "work" (between cheers) on doing the full reconstruction and to write a paper on EDL (I failed to make this happen on MER)! I am so excited for them. I will hang out with them and watch over their shoulders (I am off PHX and working MSL except for this week).

I need to grab lunch before we start up in the SOC ... have fun! I am !!

-Rob Manning

********
Comments are those of the author and do not represent the views of NASA, JPL nor Caltech.

[jmknapp]

I take it there's no feedback re my idea that the bright feature seen on that Phoenix image might be a tall rock I pinpointed on a HiRISE image of the landing zone, then? Oh well, never mind. Maybe the new images - thought they were being released about now? - will shed some light on the matter... hope so...

This just in:

quote: "Except for a single, very powerful radio emission aimed at Phobos, the white monolith has remained completely inert. It's origin and purpose... still a total mystery."

Seriously though, agreed--can't wait to see better photos of it. JPL et al have done it again!

[MarsEngineer]

It blows the mind to image how complex this must have been. Pointing the spacecraft at the right place, the right time, getting it to move the right speed (It is, after all, a pushbroom), all while keeping radio contact with the spacecraft... It blows the mind, for sure. Can't wait till the whole image is released to see if we can see the heat shield plummeting as well.

Me too! That heat shield is not far away.

(right on wrt the pushbroom ... we had to rotate MRO about the HiRISE boresight axis to get the image to not smear ... that was not in the plan until a couple of weeks ago.)

-Rob M.

[surreyguy]

Rob, does the relative velocity between the pushbroom camera and Phoenix mean that the image is distorted at all (or, conversely, to get it accurate, you had to distort the background)? Like those weird pictures of athletes at the finishing line - not a bad analogy, come to think of it.

[Gonzz]

Inspired by that photo (and Stu's poems) I decided to have a go


EDL

Flame licked
I carved a tunnel trough ice cold air
Awake. After sleep untold in darkness
Alone

Through my yellow haze I saw
Red
Plains and mountains, earth renewed
Looming closer

I bit into the air, mouthfuls
crashing into my stomach
made fire by my sheer might
spit sparks, ate heat

Ate heat till full
Until no more
Embraced the air. We fell together

Grabbed it like a jealous lover
Fought it, loved it, held it in my prison
Fast furious roar in my ears
Pulled back into the silence above

A sudden jolt
A sudden stillness, a red warm stilness
Then fall

The rushing emptiness below
me
Urgent cries from my belly
yellow cries of shouldering heat

I shouted fire towards the ground
told it run to me no more
run not my new friend
I will walk to you,

slowly

gently

the way you approach a dangerous animal
step by step against the wind

one two three four
sunken sounds against the sand
the air stopped
silence

Home

[dvandorn]

I take it there's no feedback re my idea that the bright feature seen on that Phoenix image might be a tall rock I pinpointed on a HiRISE image of the landing zone, then? Oh well, never mind. Maybe the new images - thought they were being released about now? - will shed some light on the matter... hope so... I'm really looking forward to seeing some more views of this intriguing landscape.

Since I've heard two different sets of landing co-ordinates, one of which is something like 10km from the other, I'd like to get Phoenix located on the surface first, before speculating on connections between MRO images and any feature seen anywhere in the surface images.

The surface is pretty homogenous over most scales, it appears, so I bet you could find "evidence" for cross-connections between features in MRO pics and things seen in the surface pics for just about anywhere in the surrounding 100 square km... In other words, I think it's premature to start identifying things in MRO pics until we have an MRO pic that clearly contains the lander.

-the other Doug

[ugordan]

If we're talking about the bright feature in image lg_440, that very much looks like a cosmic ray hit to me, somewhat blurred by lossy compression on the uplink and further by JPEG compression.

[nprev]

Very nice, Gonzz!

Rob, man, you're my new hero!!! Great call for all kinds of reasons; aside from the sheer coolness of it all, you guys now know what an inflated chute over Mars actually looks like!

[JRehling]

This will definitely be cited when the prospect of rendezvous in Mars orbit ever comes up. It seems like this operation would be a lot easier against a black sky and with less time-criticality. And seeing the thing you want to rendezvous with is half the problem in getting there.

[brellis]

'chute, man, that's some good stuff. Good days to be a human being.

[Phil Stooke]

So here I am in this thread replying to a question posed in the EDL thread because that one is closed. Not sure that was the best way to do it.

Regarding Stu's suggestion - a rock and two low hills. I'm not sure about the rock - looks like an artifact as someone else said. Even if it's a rock, though, I would add this warning. That identification might look good, but it's probably not unique - you might find twenty other similar matches between rocks and subtle mounds. We really need more horizon coverage.

I'm travelling, with limited internet access, so mostly just enjoying the images.

Phil

[ngunn]

Well Emily settled that - no squidding.

It happened to me once, and I have the logbook. Only terrifying once you're safely on the ground and have time to think. I'm still terrified, when I think about it.

[PFK]

Good stuff Gonzz, but I think Coleridge got there before you :
A few pertinent stanzas from The Rime of the Ancient Mariner...

The ice was here, the ice was there,
The ice was all around :
It cracked and growled, and roared and howled,
Like noises in a swound !

All in a hot and copper sky,
The bloody Sun, at noon,
Right up above the mast did stand,
No bigger than the Moon.

Water, water, every where,
And all the boards did shrink ;
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.

Prescience or laudanum?

[JRehling]

Speaking of moons, Phobos ought to be just above the horizon at the right time of day. We'll probably catch it in some side-looking images even without trying. Deimos will also be low in the sky. Of course, there's nothing but daytime viewing now, so it may be a few months before we get a chance to spot them.

[Phil Stooke]

"Prescience or laudanum?"

Laudanum.

Phil

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Which website are the latest RAW images likely to appear on first? I'm looking here at the moment: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/..._archive_1.html

[Gladstoner]

Does anyone yet know the proper orientation of the HiRISE parachute image?

I'm trying to make sense of the background striations.

[nasaman58]

Which website are the latest RAW images likely to appear on first? I'm looking here at the moment: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/..._archive_1.html

I've been using http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=8

Those are JPGs; maybe someone else can provide a link to non-compressed images or at least ones with lossless compression.

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Think it's worth waiting another half to see if anything shows up? Not sure I can stay awake much longer after going to bed at 6.30amm this morning!!

[algorimancer]

I thought new ones were supposed to begin showing up a couple of hours ago. At this point I'm assuming there's been a delay of some sort.

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

I think they said the Odyssey pass would be around 5-6pm PST ????

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Yayyy... images starting to come in http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=440&cID=8

Mostly of the instrument deck so far.

[volcanopele]

New images seem to be hitting the ground. Deck shots so far.

Quite a few thumbnails of the near-ground

[mhoward]

Twitter says: "Science team members (mostly in Tucson) are up and awaiting downlink of new images and data, coming down very soon."

[volcanopele]

Nice!

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_458.jpg

[volcanopele]

New images show a lot more rocks but still no BIG rocks.

[volcanopele]

Topography on the horizon? Crater?
http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=467&cID=8

EDIT: More topography:

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=484&cID=8

[David]

I'm seeing topography here: http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=484&cID=8

and here:
http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=467&cID=8

Hills? Crater rims? Edge of ice?

[bcory]

Has anyone got a map or HiRes image yet of the plot of where the landers generally is?

great images

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Heres the parachute

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=509&cID=8

[volcanopele]

Heat shield or parachute?

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=509&cID=8

Working on horizon mosaic ATM

[David]

Somebody throw the Swear Jar my way; I have a pressing need to contribute.

[jmknapp]

Re: local time at Phoenix site

Seems to be a discrepancy between the Mars time widgets on the JPL and LPL web sites.

JPL
LPL

At 27MAY2008 00:50 UTC, Mars time reported by the two websites:

JPL: 00:55

LPL: 16:53

[fredk]

I love it!

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_457.jpg

[tim53]

I'm seeing topography here: http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=484&cID=8

and here:
http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=467&cID=8

Hills? Crater rims? Edge of ice?

These are mesas about 20 kilometers SSW of the landing site. The larger one is about 200 meters high.

This is so cool.

-Tim.

[volcanopele]

Here's the DVD:

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_532.jpg

Some auto-mosaics are starting to show up, here's mine:

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[volcanopele]

These are mesas about 20 kilometers SSW of the landing site. The larger one is about 200 meters high.

This is so cool.

-Tim.

Cool! I assumed this was the crater to the east of the landing site until I saw the azimuths in the automosaics.

[Gladstoner]

Some of the rocks here look an awful lot like sandstone:

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=532&cID=8

[volcanopele]

Color:

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[fredk]

Anaglyph from the new batch:

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[tim53]

Cool! I assumed this was the crater to the east of the landing site until I saw the azimuths in the automosaics.

I'm hoping we'll see the crater, too. There's a 20 meter high rise in the plains east of the lander that might block it, though.


There's also a small crater or pedestal crater about 40 meters tall that should be less than 7 km to the WNW.

-Tim.

[tim53]

Heat shield or parachute?

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=509&cID=8

Working on horizon mosaic ATM

More likely to be the backshell, upside down. Could be the heatshield, but only if it's inside is facing the camera and it isn't mangled.

Since all our prior heatshields were mangled on impact, it's probably the backshell. Parachute must be out of sight from the lander.

We're fortunate this time, though. Only Opportunity was able to see it's backshell from the landing site. All other lader backshells/parachutes were out of sight behind intervening ridges.

-Tim.

[volcanopele]

If you look at lg_527.jpg, it looks like there is a topographic feature near WSW that may match the crater you brought up in the rightmost frame (closer to the camera than the distant peaks).

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_527.jpg

[bcory]

Looks like a rock got pushed along on the surface in the middle left of this mosaic. It seems to have left a trail

Possibly by thruster blast?

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_536.jpg

[tim53]

Looks like a rock got pushed along on the surface in the middle left of this mosaic. It seems to have left a trail

Possibly by thruster blast?

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_536.jpg

It sure does look like a trail. I suppose it could have been moved by the retro rockets. But it seems to have moved perpendicular to the wind tails behind other rocks.

-Tim.

[tim53]

If you look at lg_527.jpg, it looks like there is a topographic feature near WSW that may match the crater you brought up in the rightmost frame (closer to the camera than the distant peaks).

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_527.jpg

I guess we'll soon see (hopefully). It seems too far south of west to be that hill. And I don't see anything in the MOLA topography in that direction, until you get to the big mesa.

-Tim.

[bcory]

It sure does look like a trail. I suppose it could have been moved by the retro rockets. But it seems to have moved perpendicular to the wind tails behind other rocks.

-Tim.

I am also thinking it may have been ejected by the force of a landing pad on the rocks edge and rolled a bit.

[tim53]

I am also thinking it may have been ejected by the force of a landing pad on the rocks edge and rolled a bit.

Yep, rolling probably makes more sense.

[belleraphon1]

DAMN... ANOTHER NIGHT WITHOUT SLEEP.... (but loving it).....

Ok folks.... know I've said this before.... but I was 12 when Mariner 4 did it's flyby in 1965.... the images came down at 8.5 bits per second and took days to process ...this is SO mind boggling..... sitting here at my pc and watching these magnificent images pop into view, taken earlier today on Mars as I went about my daily tasks...... and we can all play with them.

There are no words for how I feel...

Craig

[algorimancer]

Yep, rolling probably makes more sense.

But the trail it left really looks more like a slide than a roll. Looks to me like the thrusters angled off of that facet on its right to so that it effectively "tacked" to the left . Neat. Looks like some more sliding/rolling rock activity in the shadowed foreground.

[Gladstoner]

Looks like a rock got pushed along on the surface in the middle left of this mosaic. It seems to have left a trail

Possibly by thruster blast?

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_536.jpg

Racetrack playa!

[ElkGroveDan]

Was there supposed to be another press conference today?

[fredk]

I'm very interested in this anaglyph: http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_540.jpg

It shows the north side of the lander, presumably areas that are accessible to the arm. Most of the surface looks quite flat, but there may be a trough to the left of "sliding rock". That would be exciting if true and if we could dig into the surface there. I'm not sure how the far side of this mosaic compares with the reach of the arm, though...

[bcory]

DAMN... ANOTHER NIGHT WITHOUT SLEEP.... (but loving it).....

Ok folks.... know I've said this before.... but I was 12 when Mariner 4 did it's flyby in 1965.... the images came down at 8.5 bits per second and took days to process ...this is SO mind boggling..... sitting here at my pc and watching these magnificent images pop into view, taken earlier today on Mars as I went about my daily tasks...... and we can all play with them.

There are no words for how I feel...

Craig

Sort of makes one wonder if the DVD onboard the MPL will be obsolete by the time man gets to Mars and recovers it

-Dave

[nprev]

No need to wonder...rest assured that it will be...but, they'll find a way to extract the data!

EDIT: Whups! Quick terminology check: you did mean Phoenix & not MPL, right? MPL's fate is unknown, do not recall if it carried a DVD or not.