[X] My Assistant

[volcanopele]

Okay, I missed the first few minutes of the press conference. What happened to MRO UHF?

[bcory]

Seems the UHF radio on the MRO is out.

Seems not able to recieve uplink from Phoneix

[stevesliva]

Anyone knows a thing about a microphone on Phoenix?Seems like noone has mentioned it and I'm not sure now that theres one!

MARDI has a microphone, although it may not be turned on. http://www.msss.com/phoenix/mardi/index.html

There's a lot more to that story, though, and this isn't the thread for it.

[ugordan]

A "transient event" affected MRO's UHF so they were unable to uplink Phoenix commands.

[mhoward]

Okay, I missed the first few minutes of the press conference. What happened to MRO UHF?

A "transient event" - they are working on turning it back on.

[volcanopele]

HiRISE image of the probe on the surface

[The Singing Badg...]

OMG!!! Crater/parachute fusion!!!!

[ugordan]

OMG, that parachute image just got way better!

HiRISE steals the show!

[bcory]

OMG What an image!

Wallpaper of the year!

[volcanopele]

HiRISE image of the probe on the surface

Looks like that bright thing to the south is the parachute. heat shield to the northeast.

[djellison]

How well did I do

So it's the backshell to the south, and something else to the north.

Doug

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Bjorn Jonsson]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! And they managed to image Phoenix on the surface in color!

[djellison]

Can't wait to get that parachute in colour not-via-a-web-feed

Doug

[Juramike]

Wow!



http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230826m...olor-browse.jpg

It looks like Phoenix "stained" most of the meso-polygon it landed in. (Also looks like it's smack dab in the middle of a meso-polygon as well)

-Mike

[volcanopele]

So THAT'S what that crater image was on the HiWall...

[paxdan]

OMFG!!!1 gets back on chair

[djellison]

For the first time, I'm going to get that HiRISE image in full, and get it printed as big as it takes to see that in full.

[Ames]

That is stunning.

[scalbers]

Meteorology note - the weather report had a diurnal temperature range from a high of -30C and a low of -80C. I gather that the frost point of CO2 is around -123C that we would look for at night later in the season. This varies slightly on Mars depending on the elevation/pressure. One can get a feel for this with the following phase diagram (noting Phoenix is at about 8 millibars).

http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/CHEMWEEK/pdf/CarbonDioxide.pdf

One can parenthetically note that the -80C low is closer to the CO2 frost point on Earth (given Earth's higher pressure) that may barely allow CO2 frost to form in Antarctica at times. I've heard about this happening, though not too many details as of yet.

[JRehling]

I think after Phoenix it will be clear to everyone that you either want your lander to have mobility --or-- have the capability of precisely droping a rover next to an immobile lander. The second option might be a smart way to explore Mars:

Well, I think the rover paradigm, while enormously useful in certain cases, may be needless here. The idea is that a presumably isotropic sheet of ice is under the soil, and that's what we're looking for. There's no doubt that there's SOME science that could be done by exploring this big flat area and the far-off topography, but that runs a distant second or third in terms of priorities here.

Rovers are sort of wheeled surrogates for us. But how would an earthworm explore Mars if it could build spacecraft? Or a hawk? Or a tuna?

I think the next steps in Mars exploration might get away from the rover paradigm. At least, we ought to make sure of the scientific goals and the terrain before we design hardware. For example, I could see a mission that fires bullets at an exposed cliff and then analyzes the samples that chip off. Or one that puts very bit of non-instrument mass into the deepest drilling possible.

At risk of overgeneralizing, I think the more we pursue geology goals, the more we'll turn to rovers, and the more we pursue astrobiological goals, the more we'll consider alternatives to rovers. And ultimately the highest price tags for exploration will be paid by astrobiology, lest we'd be doing this on the Moon or Venus.

[jabe]

For the first time, I'm going to get that HiRISE image in full, and get it printed as big as it takes to see that in full.

I'm with you ...
now to find it on HiRise site..did a quick look and didn't find it.
jb

[ugordan]

As I understand the HiBlog post, the full res image is noisy as hell so that's why they reduced the resolution greatly.

[ElkGroveDan]

They also promised (or implied) eventual image cleanup, enhancement and color on that image down the road at yesterday's press conference.

[volcanopele]

Hopefully, it will still go up on the HiWall here. All it is showing now is that Heimdall image.

[ugordan]

Geez, good time to wrap up the briefing, it was turning into MRO UHF recovery briefing, not Phoenix briefing...

[centsworth_II]

... it was turning into MRO UHF recovery briefing...

I was glad they asked a lot of questions about it. Peter Smith probably was too, as he said he was just then hearing about it.

[djellison]

I'll shut up the old one now - but this one will probably run until the press con after next.

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

I was glad they asked a lot of questions about it. Peter Smith probably was too, as he said he was just then hearing about it.

There will probably be more news stories about the mission today due to the UHF issue than if the problem hadn't occured. The press do like reporting on problems lol

It must be very frustrating for the science team though - having to wait a little longer.

[Roby72]

Anyone heard about Greenbank ? Was it possible do receive the Phoenix signal ?

Robert

[ugordan]

Did anyone find a more complete HiRISE surface shot encompassing also the backshell? Did they crop it out due to lack of color coverage or what? I didn't quite understand if MRO succeeded in both imaging tries so this color shot is actually the second one?

[nilstycho]

Did anyone find a more complete HiRISE surface shot encompassing also the backshell? Did they crop it out due to lack of color coverage or what? I didn't quite understand if MRO succeeded in both imaging tries so this color shot is actually the second one?

Full image here.

More here.

[jabe]

I liked the mars weather graphic they posted..
Is it posted somewhere or did they just create it for the press conference.
be great to have that up on the web site
cheers
jb

[kwan3217]

I missed the briefing, and I have a question about the parachute. I see an image http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230826m...olor-browse.jpg of the lander and what looks to me like a crater where the heatshield bounced and a burnt heatshield, both to the southeast of the lander. I also see no sign of the parachute or backshell, and the link for the parachute image on http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/phoenix-hardware.php is broken. Did anyone see an image of the parachute?

Edit: I see it from a post above, thanks! So, do they have a better latitude/longitude for the lander reported yet? Also, when latitudes are reported, are they planetographic or planetocentric?

[ugordan]

Thanks!

[Mongo]

That was my understanding from the press briefing. The first HiRISE image (11 hours after landing) was not precisely aimed at Phoenix, as its position had not yet been nailed down. It was captured in the wider B&W portion of the scan, but not in the central zone with colour. By the time of the second image (22 hours?), the location of Phoenix was precisely known, so MRO was able to capture it in colour, using the central zone of the HiRISE camera.

[nilstycho]

So, do they have a better latitude/longitude for the lander reported yet? Also, when latitudes are reported, are they planetographic or planetocentric?

I missed the exact coordinates, but you can figure it out from the green cross here.

[Stu]

I liked the mars weather graphic they posted..
Is it posted somewhere or did they just create it for the press conference.
be great to have that up on the web site

Here you go...

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/phoenix/col...r2__800-600.jpg

[JRehling]

Fascinating that the backshell stained an area about half as big as the stain around Phoenix. That impact must have been pretty hard. I hope that minimizes the worries about the propulsion as a contaminant.

[GuyMac]

That was my understanding from the press briefing. The first HiRISE image (11 hours after landing) was not precisely aimed at Phoenix, as its position had not yet been nailed down. It was captured in the wider B&W portion of the scan, but not in the central zone with colour. By the time of the second image (22 hours?), the location of Phoenix was precisely known, so MRO was able to capture it in colour, using the central zone of the HiRISE camera.

That is exactly right. In fact, in the EDL+11 image, we at first only noticed the chute, the lander is barely visible (low sun angle, one of the solar arrays is in shadow).

[kungpostyle]

Question on the sliding rock:

Is it possible the helium venting right after landing moved the rock?

It seems like the trail would have been blown away if that had happened.

[ugordan]

Hi Guy,

Any chance the first image'll be released as well?

[djellison]

Getting bored of martian doughnuts - so I un-philed this one

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[bcory]

Question on the sliding rock:

Is it possible the helium venting right after landing moved the rock?

It seems like the trail would have been blown away if that had happened.

At today's confrence they said they believe it's movement was caused by landing thruster blasts.

[Mick Hyde]

Getting bored of martian doughnuts - so I un-philed this one

Nice work, how did you do this?

Mick.

[fredk]

Truly a classic image, that hirise descent shot!

Has anyone else noticed that the impact points for both heatshield and backshell appear dark in the hirise shot? Presumably this means that there's no ice very close to the surface, otherwise I'd expect to see some bright debris or at least bright regions inside the impact craters. There shouldn't have been much time for exposed ice to evaporate?

Anyone recall how deep Oppy's heatshield crater was? 20 cm or so?

[bgarlick]

Before the arm is even un-stowed, Phoenix has already excavated the polar region, well at least it's heatshield did!

My question is why is the heatshield impact site so dark if this region is nothing but ice just under the surface?

When we start digging are we also going to see equally dark material?

(EDIT: looks like fredk, previous post, noticed the same thing... Maybe if the ice surface is highly reflective and the sun is not in the right place for specular
reflection then it would appear dark? ie, is it dark because we are seeing a reflection of dark sky?)

[ugordan]

It's actually the backshell that looks to me as the one that's been excavating anything. The heatshield impact site appears black, maybe due to charred debris off the shield?

[bgarlick]

The heatshield impact site appears black, maybe due to charred debris off the shield?

Reasonable idea, but Oppy's heatshield impact site excavated a few inches at least and did not leave much fine charred debris to cover the impact site.

[um3k]

Don't forget about the burned cork.

[kenny]

Both MER heat shields seemed to invert, i.e. folded back over on themselves after splitting apart, exposing a bright shiny metallic interior which was so relfective in the Rover images. This time it looks as if the heatshield landed shiny-side down without breaking into pieces.... assuming of course it is manufactured the same way as the MER heatshields.

Can anyone say what the interior of the Phoenix heat shield looks like?

[bgarlick]

Don't forget about the burned cork.

Maybe that is it. I looked up a Oppy heatshield impact and indeed I do see some dark material deposited...

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap050209.html

[ugordan]

Can anyone say what the interior of the Phoenix heat shield looks like?

It's not completely reflective from the inside, quite dark apparently. There's a certain area covered in metal foil:


Judging by this, the shield impacted front end first, bounced and turned around with the front end looking up.

[nilstycho]

Maybe that is it. I looked up a Oppy heatshield impact and indeed I do see some dark material deposited...

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap050209.html

For comparison, Spirit's from the ground and orbit.

[MaxSt]

That huge crater on the HiRise image, where is it on the map?

[nilstycho]

That huge crater on the HiRise image, where is it on the map?

Heimdall is the "large crater to the right" on this image. It's here on Google Mars.

[kenny]

I think it has to be the huge crater to the right (east) of the landing elipse

[scalbers]

Getting bored of martian doughnuts - so I un-philed this one

Very nice to see your mosaic Doug. It's amazing how much more easily this can be made (and shared) today compared with when I did it with Viking imagery back in 1976-77 at JPL. One question though, do you have any means of geometrically correcting the camera images or is this slightly more approximate? Perhaps the curved edges on some of the available images indicates they are converted to a cylindrical projection?

Steve

[remcook]

wow, more amazing stuff from hirise! it seems phoenix affected quite an area surrounded it. but I assume this is only the top few mm. Is that right? I didn't see the press briefing.

[djellison]

I just totally guessed it from the Polar projections on the Phoenix website - Photoshop distorted back to rectangular, and then reduced the height by about 3/4s. About as scientific as measuring the distance from the earth to the moon with a ruler.

Doug

[kenny]

So HIRISE must have taken TWO separate images of Phoenix on the chute?

In the first one released, with the dark background, the chute is to the upper RIGHT of the lander, while in the big picture taken against the crater Heimdall, the chute is to the UPPER LEFT of the lander.

Unless they twisted round one of images, for some reason ? Are they both from the same image?

[djellison]

One is a mirror of the other. In the rush to get it ready for press, they probably didn't get time to properly process, or they didn't compensate for some obscurity due to the weird imaging plan involved.

[GuyMac]

So HIRISE must have taken TWO separate images of Phoenix on the chute?

In the first one released, with the dark background, the chute is to the upper RIGHT of the lander, while in the big picture taken against the crater Heimdall, the chute is to the UPPER LEFT of the lander.

Unless they twisted round one of images, for some reason ? Are they both from the same image?

They are both from the same image. The one with the crater was rotated so it is more aesthetic, with the crater walls more or less perpendicular.

[Ant103]

I arrived in late… But, what a GREAT picture from Hirise!!! Incredible, in can't believe my eyes.

[dot.dk]

As I understand it, the chute image was taken with HiRISE at a very high angle. Maybe they should do that more often to make these dramatic images

[imipak]

One data point on media coverage: I can't decide if this is good or bad news though. This story filled the entire front page of the Independent, and there's a very positive leader (editorial) as well:

Is the expense of these missions worth it? Of course. [...]

I got my souvenir copy :/ A couple of the other broadsheets had it as a single column, below-the-fold item... and that was it.

[marswiggle]

Fantastic new images!

If anyone's interested in identifying objects around Phoenix in HiRISE images, here is an earlier image (PSP_002328_2485) which includes the confirmed landing point. The exact location of the landing spot in the full map-projected image is P 18600, L 12000.

A north-up crop from the old image, with labels pointing to their right to the known locations of hardware.

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[peter59]

As I understand it, the chute image was taken with HiRISE at a very high angle. Maybe they should do that more often to make these dramatic images

HiRISE usually points downward. For this image, the pointing was at 62 degrees, nearly two-thirds of the way from straight down to horizontal.

[Shaka]

They are both from the same image. The one with the crater was rotated so it is more aesthetic, with the crater walls more or less perpendicular.

Thanks, Guy, that settles that.
A year or two ago this might have snowballed into a grand debate between schools of thought: the 2-shotters vs the Mirror-Imagers - complete with mascots, slogans and principal spokespersons. It was good, clean fun, but used a lot of bandwidth. Now GuyMac logs on, types 2 authoritative sentences, and we move on to other topics of interest!
The ratio of researchers to wannabes at UMSF seems to have soared in recent months. That leaves a lot of us with little to do but listen and learn, but results in a professional/amateur educational melange that must be pretty unique in the scientific realm.

Ya gotta love it.

[stevelu]

So now we know why Phoenix drifted so far East.

It was -- perhaps in a hastily-hatched conspiracy with HiRise -- angling to line up in front of Heimdall crater, so that we could have that absolutely stunning picture. Question is, were any of the humans in on it?

Anyone want to take bets on how many major news pubs put it on their cover and/or front page above the fold?

[Ant103]

I'm wondering if there will be released a full frame jp2 file of the picture with crater and Phoenix EDL

[christian_d]

I noticed that in the color picture HiRISE took (http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230842m..._Lander-str.jpg), the area around phoenix is darker. This area is about circular, circa 7 times Phoenix's lenght in diameter.

Is this due to the thrusters? It seems to be a larger area affected, compared to the ground images (there was the discussion about the "dusty" rocks). Can this be seen in earlier HiRISE images from before the landing?

[SFJCody]

Mars really is a human place now isn't it? Three surface outposts, three orbiters, orbiters imaging each other, orbiters imaging landers both in descent and on the surface. Seems like it's an extension of Earth, our rust red world next door. So different in feeling from the long empty gap before Pathfinder and all that followed.

Edit: That said, the Heimdall crater + Phoenix image still gives a startling sense of perspective- huge, alien crater and a tiny fragile human machine heading into the unknown... we've barely begun to explore this place.

[jabe]

Here you go...

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/phoenix/col...r2__800-600.jpg

Hey, what happened to the units?
I hope they post an updated weather graphic on the web site somewhere.. be neat to follow the data daily
jb
EDIT: Looks like they have added it too the main mars page and have one on the CSA web site as well.

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Is the next data relay likely to be about the same time as last nights?

[stevelu]

complete with mascots, slogans and principal spokespersons....good, clean fun, but used a lot of bandwidth.

oops

Just to keep the good ol' days with us in spirit, I will also (in addition to the machine conspiracy I unmasked above) suggest that it was the 'rabbit' from the Spirit landing site, on it's annual migration, which pushed that rock away from Phoenix at an angle.

OK, now that I've got that off my chest, I will stand down and assume a proper scientific attitude

[climber]

...and we can see that one of the rovers already drove by Phoenix

[SpaceListener]

I think it has to be the huge crater to the right (east) of the landing elipse

it is a 10 kilometer (6 mile) diameter crater informally called "Heimdall"
That is an impressible picture and I thought that Phoenix was about to land inside
of crater but it was about 20 kilometer behind of the crater. Inside of crater is
covered by dioxide carbon or ice by its bright color.

REDIT: :Indeed yes it is much bigger if we compare ones' Victoria where Opportunity is living...

[climber]

Question : is "Heimdall" already visible in the part of the pano we have or is it in the still missing part?

[The Singing Badg...]

Does anyone know where the name 'Heimdall' comes from?

[SpaceListener]

Question : is "Heimdall" already visible in the part of the pano we have or is it in the still missing part?

Visit here for details

[hendric]

OK, so after drooling over the Heimdall picture, I got to wondering, "Where's the ice?" Shouldn't we see some effect of the ice layers in the walls of that crater? It's ~12x as large as Victoria, btw.

Are those white specs on the right slope bits of ice?

[JRehling]

Mars really is a human place now isn't it? Three surface outposts

One of the scoreboards for me is how many locations on the surface we've seen. Which is now, broadly speaking, at six, although the MERs expand that in a way that's hard to describe with integer math. I suppose you could say Spirit has given us two views -- from its landing site and from the hills -- and Opportunity has given us two -- from the plains and into craters -- and count it as eight.

Looking at my MER-based topographical globe, though, I note that all of our landing sites are in the blue and the green -- low altitude areas. And we know of the fascinating layered terrains in valleys and craters that have yet to be seen from the surface. I look at the rugged areas in the highlands and around Solis Planum and many others and wonder what those will look like from up close. Imagine if in terrestrial geology we'd only seen Ukraine, Kansas, and other places like that, while Utah, the Andes, the Himalaya, etc., were all unseen.

[elakdawalla]

Tim, if you're reading this, can you report the exact lat/lon coordinates of the landing site? I tried to ask here in the press room and they got me someone to talk to who was telling me how important it was for this mission that they landed at an Alaska-like latitude rather than a Florida-like latitude Not quite the level of detail I was hoping for...

--Emily

[surreyguy]

OK, so after drooling over the Heimdall picture, I got to wondering, "Where's the ice?" Shouldn't we see some effect of the ice layers in the walls of that crater?

Wouldn't there be new layers, deposited since the crater formed, hiding whatever it revealed on impact?

[elakdawalla]

A question for all: what's the scale on the HiRISE image of the landing site? They don't report it on their website. It can be calculated by measuring the lander -- was hoping I wouldn't have to take the time

--Emily

[climber]

Regarding the HiRise picture of the back shell and parachute, it seams to me that the backsell hit the ground North of the actual position (dark patch) while the heat shield hit SW of the actual position. Could it means that the chutte (so, the wind) dragged the backsell to the actual position? Does anybody see the same?

[fredk]

If anyone's interested in identifying objects around Phoenix in HiRISE images ... A north-up crop from the old image, with labels pointing to their right to the known locations of hardware.

Thanks for this, marswiggle! Here's a "before and after" animated gif of the lander location, with only a quick and dirty attempt at rescaling/rotating the images to match:

[ugordan]

Emily, my calculations based on span of the solar arrays and known dimensions (5.5 m) give me a pixel scale of about 0.35-0.40 m/pix. It would help if someone could remember the distances reported at the press briefing to the parachute and heatshield.

[nilstycho]

Tim, if you're reading this, can you report the exact lat/lon coordinates of the landing site? I tried to ask here in the press room and they got me someone to talk to who was telling me how important it was for this mission that they landed at an Alaska-like latitude rather than a Florida-like latitude Not quite the level of detail I was hoping for...

My chips are on... (Edit: Tim has my chips now.)

[Juramike]

Thanks for this, marswiggle! Here's a "before and after" animated gif of the lander location, with only a quick and dirty attempt at rescaling/rotating the images to match:

Thanks Fred! That really helps show the effect of the thrusters on the terrain. It looks like virgin unaltered surface (on the surface) is a little too far from the lander for the arm.

Also might expect that whatever we see in the very, very close vicinity of the lander had to survive the whoosh. So it should have a higher concentration of coarser grains, with the lighter dust settling on top of it (compared to virgin terrain).

-Mike

[Reed]

Regarding the HiRise picture of the back shell and parachute, it seams to me that the backsell hit the ground North of the actual position (dark patch) while the heat shield hit SW of the actual position. Could it means that the chutte (so, the wind) dragged the backsell to the actual position? Does anybody see the same?

It does look that way. My guess is that this due to horizontal motion as it hit (which might be due to wind), not dragging by wind after the fact.

On the communication issues:
Not mentioned in the press conference, but AFAIK Mars Express also has rely capability, as a backup backup

[JRehling]

Thanks Fred! That really helps show the effect of the thrusters on the terrain. It looks like virgin unaltered surface (on the surface) is a little too far from the lander for the arm.

What makes me hopeful is that there's also such a big splash around the backshell. The boundary of the discoloration may signify the disturbance of a VERY thin and superficial layer of dust, which isn't what Phoenix means to study, anyway. So we may see that everything more than 1 cm down or so is still pretty virgin.

[ugordan]

So we may see that everything more than 1 cm down or so is still pretty virgin.

And if the soil is somewhat sticky (e.g. similar to ordinary regolith), it may even be less than 1 cm. It could be that just the finest of dust grains were picked up by the exhaust. Any fine dust deeper in (immediately below the surface) would be shielded by larger grains.

[imipak]

A probably-naive question(s): why would the effect of the thrusters be to darken, rather than lighten, the surface? Does it confirm there's little or no ice in the upper layer of more firmly consolidated regolith, immediately below the 10-20mm superficial dust on the surface, or is it just down to the grain size? (I believe very small thin films of ice on sand-sized grains don't necessarily lighten the appearance at HiRISE resolutions?)

[Juramike]

What makes me hopeful is that there's also such a big splash around the backshell. The boundary of the discoloration may signify the disturbance of a VERY thin and superficial layer of dust, which isn't what Phoenix means to study, anyway. So we may see that everything more than 1 cm down or so is still pretty virgin.

There might also be a bit of sorting of the smaller pebbles and grains (visible on the surface).

You might be able to look further from the lander to determine the effect, but this will be confounded by the natural sorting that occurs on polygonal terrain.

Vertical mobility, dig it!

[ugordan]

Imipak, I believe it's the same reason why dust devils leave dark streaks. Notice the backshell also has darker soil around it and it had no engines.

[imipak]

the same reason why dust devils leave dark streaks.

Ah yes, of course - thanks!

[djellison]

Surface
-----------
Fine Dust
-----------

Basaltic
Sandy
Soil

----------


Icey Soil


---------

Ice-T



Maybe....just guessing

[Juramike]

False color image I made of the HiRISE Phoenix lander image:



Dark blue shows the extent of the thruster (or impact whump) effect.

-Mike

[volcanopele]

Nice false color. Definitely suggests that the dark splotch around Phoenix is due to removal of the dust top layer rather than a chemical change.