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Unmanned landing sites from LRO, Surveyors, Lunas, Lunakhods and impact craters from hardware impacts
kenny
post Apr 11 2010, 07:39 AM
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I agree that Phil's object is Luna 18. Geert's object looks like a rock which is a different shape and substantially smaller than a Luna. Geert, thnanks also for explaining how there are more images available than the system seems to show, which also explains how no-one (to my knowledge) has been able to find Luna 16 in a big context image, although the craft itself has been excised and posted by the LROC people.

If south is to the bottom, the ascent stage might actually have toppled over to the SE, and there is a curious extra shadow on the NE side of the image.. a rock or an arm or antenna of the spacecraft? Better defintion image awaited with interest.
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Geert
post Apr 11 2010, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE (kenny @ Apr 11 2010, 02:39 PM) *
I agree that Phil's object is Luna 18. Geert's object looks like a rock which is a different shape and substantially smaller than a Luna.
If south is to the bottom, the ascent stage might actually have toppled over to the SE, and there is a curious extra shadow on the NE side of the image.. a rock or an arm or antenna of the spacecraft? Better defintion image awaited with interest.


The object I mentioned before was at the coordinates the LROC site gave for Luna 18, so it's no 'Geert's object' laugh.gif
I agree that the object Phil shows much better conforms to size and shape of a Luna sample return craft, so I think he has indeed a much better candidate.

I tried to find the object Phil mentions in other images of the area, problem is making sure that you have indeed the same thing, but maybe I succeeded in M104147428LE, if I'm correct than the same crater Phil mentions is in this image almost at the bottom of the image.

Attached Image


Might this be the same object Phil has found? It certainly looks 'artificial' and indeed as if the ascent stage has broken off, there still seem to be some shadows of antenna..

EDIT: From the latest localizer image Phil posted, it's clear I had the correct crater, but the wrong stone/object !
Still trying to find the correct object in the other images of the area.

I'm trying to get the same thing in other images as well, and trying to work out convincingly that we are indeed talking about the same thing, it's hard to puzzle out how pixel-coordinates from one image map into the other, so I might very well be wrong! If I can find the time I'll try to work out a better method of making sure we are talking about the same thing..
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Hungry4info
post Apr 11 2010, 10:17 AM
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I'm not convinced. Looking at the shadow gives you a rough idea of what the shape of the object is along the line of sight. It looks rather bumpy, but then again I don't know if the shadow of the object falling on that (what appears to be) rock is the cause of this.


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Phil Stooke
post Apr 11 2010, 12:15 PM
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Attached Image


Here's a finder image for Luna 16 - I just figured it out yesterday. I'm preparing guides like this to all the previously unlocated objects.

Phil


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Phil Stooke
post Apr 11 2010, 01:14 PM
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This is where my Luna 18 candidate is:

Attached Image


and here is the same thing at high sun. It doesn't look so convincing in this image.

Attached Image


Phil


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Geert
post Apr 11 2010, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Apr 11 2010, 08:14 PM) *
and here is the same thing at high sun. It doesn't look so convincing in this image.


Judging from your latest image, I clearly found the wrong object although possibly in the correct crater.

Based on the lat/lon data and the image data, both the "official" luna 18 candidate as probably your candidate, should also be visible in image M104147428LE which seems to have a more favorable sun angle, however as yet I didn't manage to find either.

Don't know why they don't include this image on the list at the preliminary Luna 18 position, while it seems to cover the area, maybe they simply haven't managed either to find the object in this image?


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kenny
post Apr 11 2010, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Apr 10 2010, 07:47 PM) *
Here's the new comparison image. (PS I really ought to be doing some work around the house... but who can leave this stuff alone?)


Housework indeed ... and bang goes the gardening.

I'm looking at Phil's second set of 2 comparison images. Now assuming the landing orientations of the 2 craft are roughly the same, I'm seeing in the case of Luna 18 an extra "lump" at the South East (bottom right) position, which might be the ascent stage toppled off. That might make the funny shadaow top right (North East corner) to be the partially raised drilling arm.

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ilbasso
post Apr 12 2010, 03:16 AM
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QUOTE (Geert @ Apr 11 2010, 05:43 AM) *
Might this be the same object Phil has found? It certainly looks 'artificial' and indeed as if the ascent stage has broken off, there still seem to be some shadows of antenna..


It looks to me like you found "Nomad" from the Star Trek Original Series!


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ElkGroveDan
post Apr 12 2010, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (kenny @ Apr 11 2010, 01:01 PM) *
Now assuming the landing orientations of the 2 craft are roughly the same,

I'd say not. Here's my guess on the relative orientations. The slopes that they are resting on and the different sun angle are likely contributing to the apparent variance in dimensions. When you alter lighting angles on spherical objects (which the Luna craft were rife with) perceptions of size and shape change accordingly.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 


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kenny
post Apr 12 2010, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Apr 12 2010, 04:55 AM) *
I'd say not. Here's my guess on the relative orientations.


I do see what you mean. That extra object (now in the NE postion) still looks brighter than the rest and could still be a toppled shiny ascent stage. And maybe the dark shadow (now at south, bottom) is a rock it unluckily landed on and it is now straddling, or indeed the drilling arm.

The landing sequence of these vehicles was totally automated and Lunas 18 and 20 were the same model (unlike Luna 23, 24) so my guess is that landing orientation would be intended to be identical, so that antennae and landing radar were pointing in predictable ways. But of course things can go wrong...as we know they did with Luna 18.
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Phil Stooke
post Apr 12 2010, 11:59 AM
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This is Surveyor 3 in the most recent released image.

Phil

Attached Image


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Astro0
post Apr 13 2010, 11:27 AM
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Great work as always Phil.

Thought I'd try a bit of reverse Phil-O-Vision and squish rather that stretch the image to reduce the shadow to something more in scale for the Surveyor vehicle. Here's the comparison.
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PDP8E
post May 27 2010, 01:56 AM
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Here is a tortured enhancement of LUNOKHOD 2 made from the LRO image
I found a site that has many VRML models of Russian spaceships.
http://vsm.host.ru/e_vrml.htm All I can discern it is run by a guy named 'chernov' (nice site!)

Attached Image


I oriented the model (approximately) as seen from above as in the images

Cheers




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Phil Stooke
post May 27 2010, 01:18 PM
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Interesting!

By the way, only a couple of weeks until the next LROC release - June 15th...

Phil


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Phil Stooke
post May 31 2010, 03:04 AM
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This is a possible candidate for the Chang-e-1 impact crater. I have done a comparison of Apollo 15 Metric camera image AS15-M-2003 with LROC M106533362RE, and some nice-looking craters in LROC were already there for Apollo 15. This one is on the verge of detectability in the Apollo frame, but just possibly might be new. I don't have the Apollo panoramic image yet to confirm it.

Phil

Attached Image


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