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Moon Images By SMART-1
dilo
post Apr 5 2005, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE (djellison @ Apr 5 2005, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Marcel @ Apr 5 2005, 09:48 AM)
QUOTE (djellison @ Apr 5 2005, 07:23 AM)
QUOTE (dilo @ Apr 5 2005, 04:49 AM)
Anyone know where are promised HR images of LEM sites? SMART should have taken them many weeks ago...
*


They're not going to occur till it's in it's lowest possible orbit - some months away yet

Doug
*



How can a LEM be seen on an image with resolution of 27 m / pixel ? It's not 27 meters across is it ?
*



There's something on the ESA website about planned imaging of the sites later, at v.low altitude I believe

I thought the same thing as you at first.

Doug
*



Yes, I'm referring to a press release which mentioned planned pictures of the "landing" sites (I exagerated sayng "LEM" pictures...), some weeks ago.
I cannot find the article, but if I recall correctly, images should be already on the ground and should be very interesting... why they publish so few informations???


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Guest_Sunspot_*
post Apr 6 2005, 11:11 AM
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It was a space.com article:

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/050304_moon_snoop.html
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Marcel
post Apr 6 2005, 12:28 PM
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QUOTE (Sunspot @ Apr 6 2005, 11:11 AM)


Ah, now i remember. I reread it and the idea is to spot rocket plume disturbance by the lunar module and do it in the same manner as they can do now with MGS (cPROTO: rolling the craft during overpass while keeping the imager on the same target can tripple the resolution in the direction of orbit). I did not know SMART-1 has this (fast and accurate) positioning capabilities though.....

A little side step: What would this cPROTO technique mean for MRO-images by the way ? I read that HiRISE has a resolution of about 50 cm/pixel. Would this mean that rolling procedures (enhancing line sampling time) could make images of 15 cm/pixel ? ohmy.gif
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dilo
post Apr 6 2005, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (Marcel @ Apr 6 2005, 12:28 PM)
Ah, now i remember. I reread it and the idea is to spot rocket plume disturbance by the lunar module and do it in the same manner as they can do now with MGS (cPROTO: rolling the craft during overpass while keeping the imager on the same target can tripple the resolution in the direction of orbit). I did not know SMART-1 has this (fast and accurate) positioning capabilities though.....

A little side step: What would this cPROTO technique mean for MRO-images by the way ? I read that HiRISE has a resolution of about 50 cm/pixel. Would this mean that rolling procedures (enhancing line sampling time) could make images of 15 cm/pixel ?  ohmy.gif
*


Hey, 15cm resolution means to have a military spy-satellite around Mars! tongue.gif
Anyway, Marcel, I think that is not necessary to "fast and accurate positioning capabilities" in order to realize this:
if you use a CCD detector, it should be sufficient to set correct "timing" for row scanning and this would eliminate effect
of spacecraft motion (similar tecnique is used in some automated astronomical telescopes like "spaceguard survey" ones).
Anyway, if they really want to portrait LEM vehicles they should fly SMART very low (I calculated a mere 10Km height in order to
have 1m resolution!). ohmy.gif
This is due to relatively wide angle used in the AMIE camera aboard this spacecraft...


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djellison
post Apr 6 2005, 08:20 PM
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IIRC - the Smart1 Camera is a discreet 1024 x 1024 pixels, so you couldnt do the cproto type imaging which can only be done with a push-broom single line type of camera.

Doug
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Marcel
post Apr 7 2005, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (dilo @ Apr 6 2005, 08:05 PM)
QUOTE (Marcel @ Apr 6 2005, 12:28 PM)

Ah, now i remember. I reread it and the idea is to spot rocket plume disturbance by the lunar module and do it in the same manner as they can do now with MGS (cPROTO: rolling the craft during overpass while keeping the imager on the same target can tripple the resolution in the direction of orbit). I did not know SMART-1 has this (fast and accurate) positioning capabilities though.....

A little side step: What would this cPROTO technique mean for MRO-images by the way ? I read that HiRISE has a resolution of about 50 cm/pixel. Would this mean that rolling procedures (enhancing line sampling time) could make images of 15 cm/pixel ?  ohmy.gif
*


Hey, 15cm resolution means to have a military spy-satellite around Mars! tongue.gif
Anyway, Marcel, I think that is not necessary to "fast and accurate positioning capabilities" in order to realize this:
if you use a CCD detector, it should be sufficient to set correct "timing" for row scanning and this would eliminate effect
of spacecraft motion (similar tecnique is used in some automated astronomical telescopes like "spaceguard survey" ones).
Anyway, if they really want to portrait LEM vehicles they should fly SMART very low (I calculated a mere 10Km height in order to
have 1m resolution!). ohmy.gif
This is due to relatively wide angle used in the AMIE camera aboard this spacecraft...
*



10 km ? ohmy.gif Could this be done ? There's no drag, so one could say yes.
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Marcel
post Apr 7 2005, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE (Marcel @ Apr 7 2005, 11:00 AM)
QUOTE (dilo @ Apr 6 2005, 08:05 PM)
QUOTE (Marcel @ Apr 6 2005, 12:28 PM)

Ah, now i remember. I reread it and the idea is to spot rocket plume disturbance by the lunar module and do it in the same manner as they can do now with MGS (cPROTO: rolling the craft during overpass while keeping the imager on the same target can tripple the resolution in the direction of orbit). I did not know SMART-1 has this (fast and accurate) positioning capabilities though.....

A little side step: What would this cPROTO technique mean for MRO-images by the way ? I read that HiRISE has a resolution of about 50 cm/pixel. Would this mean that rolling procedures (enhancing line sampling time) could make images of 15 cm/pixel ?  ohmy.gif
*


Hey, 15cm resolution means to have a military spy-satellite around Mars! tongue.gif
Anyway, Marcel, I think that is not necessary to "fast and accurate positioning capabilities" in order to realize this:
if you use a CCD detector, it should be sufficient to set correct "timing" for row scanning and this would eliminate effect
of spacecraft motion (similar tecnique is used in some automated astronomical telescopes like "spaceguard survey" ones).
Anyway, if they really want to portrait LEM vehicles they should fly SMART very low (I calculated a mere 10Km height in order to
have 1m resolution!). ohmy.gif
This is due to relatively wide angle used in the AMIE camera aboard this spacecraft...
*



10 km ? ohmy.gif Could this be done ? There's no drag, so one could say yes.
*



Found out myself it can be done: apollo 10 came within 9 km's. I'd say do it !
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chris
post Apr 7 2005, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE
Found out myself it can be done: apollo 10 came within 9 km's. I'd say do it !
*


IIRC, some of the mountains on the moon are 5-6km high, so you have to dodge if you want to go any lower. Otherwise its no problem at all.
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djellison
post Apr 7 2005, 11:29 AM
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Just checked the specs for Amie - and yes - it is a 1024 x 1024 CCD, so the concept of Cproto would not work - the only way to get higher resolution would be to get lower.

MRO could, technically, be commanded to do a motion-compensation technique to get higher than 30cm downrange resolution. How succesfull it would be, I dont know. Frankly - the data output from HiRISE is so enormous - I'm not sure if the supporting electronics would be able to cope, but I'm sure the same was said of MOC before they tried.

Doug
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tedstryk
post Apr 7 2005, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (djellison @ Apr 7 2005, 11:29 AM)
Just checked the specs for Amie - and yes - it is a 1024 x 1024 CCD, so the concept of Cproto would not work - the only way to get higher resolution would be to get lower.

MRO could, technically, be commanded to do a motion-compensation technique to get higher than 30cm downrange resolution. How succesfull it would be, I dont know. Frankly - the data output from HiRISE is so enormous - I'm not sure if the supporting electronics would be able to cope, but I'm sure the same was said of MOC before they tried.

Doug
*



Another problem is that given that MRO won't be circling Mars any slower than MGS, to do CPROTO would result in incredibly short integration times, which might lead to images that are badly underexposed. And I don't know if MRO is stable enough to support such resolution.


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djellison
post Apr 7 2005, 02:58 PM
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Ah haa...

http://www.msss.com/mer_mission/finding_mer/index.html#PROTO

HiRISE will already do it internally

QUOTE
However, the 2005 Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) experiment is predicated on using internal image motion compensation to provide sampling at smaller scales than its diffraction limit and using image processing techniques to improve the resolution;


Doug
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ilbasso
post Apr 7 2005, 09:37 PM
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The other problem with really low lunar orbit might be the MASCONs - the mass concentrations which had unpredictable effects on orbits of the Lunar Orbiters and Apollo. Were those eventually mapped out well enough that we could ensure that an object in very low lunar orbit would be able to maintain a stable orbit?


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jamescanvin
post Apr 8 2005, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (ilbasso @ Apr 8 2005, 07:37 AM)
The other problem with really low lunar orbit might be the MASCONs - the mass concentrations which had unpredictable effects on orbits of the Lunar Orbiters and Apollo.  Were those eventually mapped out well enough that we could ensure that an object in very low lunar orbit would be able to maintain a stable orbit?
*


I don't know how well the MASCONs are mapped, but I don't think that really matters as they essentially make any lunar orbit unstable to some degree. I think if they were to ever lower SMART-1 to this kind of altitude it would be end of mission fairly quickly.

J.


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dvandorn
post Apr 8 2005, 05:29 AM
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QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Apr 7 2005, 06:12 PM)
QUOTE (ilbasso @ Apr 8 2005, 07:37 AM)
The other problem with really low lunar orbit might be the MASCONs - the mass concentrations which had unpredictable effects on orbits of the Lunar Orbiters and Apollo.  Were those eventually mapped out well enough that we could ensure that an object in very low lunar orbit would be able to maintain a stable orbit?
*


I don't know how well the MASCONs are mapped, but I don't think that really matters as they essentially make any lunar orbit unstable to some degree. I think if they were to ever lower SMART-1 to this kind of altitude it would be end of mission fairly quickly.

J.
*



Low lunar orbits can be *very* unstable -- like on the matter of days to weeks. Apollo 15 was inserted into its descent orbit (60 x 9 nmi.) on the second rev after LOI, and roughly 18 hours later the perilune had descended from 50,000 feet to 37,000 feet... and dropping. The 15 crew had to perform a bail-out burn very early on PDI day to increase the perilune before the landing could proceed.

Even the "mid-height" lunar orbits that the Apollo CSMs flew weren't all that stable. The Apollo 16 subsatellite was released from the standard CSM orbit (they canceled a shaping burn designed to put the subsatellite into a more stable, somewhat higher orbit), and it fell ou of orbit after only six weeks.

The only lunar orbits that are stable over a long period of time are those that are propulsively maintained... *smile*...

-the other Doug


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OWW
post Jul 25 2005, 03:02 PM
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New status update for SMART-1:

http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/in...fobjectid=37703

It will exhaust all its xenon next month! So, no more ion-drive...
Also, two new pictures:

Glushko crater:
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/in...fobjectid=37704

And Hadley rille:
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/in...fobjectid=37705
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