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It's June - Better LOLA?
JohnVV
post Aug 3 2010, 01:23 AM
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djellison seeing that is also true for most of the maps on pds and from nasa , that is nothing new

and are you referring to the gdr from march
http://pds-geosciences.wustl.edu/lro/lro-l.../data/lola_gdr/
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mhoward
post Aug 3 2010, 02:38 AM
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QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Aug 2 2010, 09:13 AM) *
An announcement from the PDS -- I don't know if this affects any of the work that you all are doing --


Thanks for the heads up. I'd identified long ranges of the data that clearly did not match their neighboring areas; it will be interesting to see if they are corrected now. (Of course, it sounds like that will require re-downloading all the RDR data again, which will probably take me over a week. Also I'm running low on hard drive space rolleyes.gif )
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djellison
post Aug 3 2010, 02:52 AM
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QUOTE (JohnVV @ Aug 2 2010, 06:23 PM) *
djellison seeing that is also true for most of the maps on pds and from nasa


The recent swath of Cassini maps doesn't have this problem, nor the MOLA GDR's in my experience.

But yes - I'm talking about the LOLA GDR's
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mhoward
post Aug 12 2010, 04:16 PM
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Interesting - unless I'm doing something wrong, it looks like the RDR data has been extensively corrected. This is good! I should have a better estimation of the improvement in a few days.
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Phil Stooke
post Aug 12 2010, 04:17 PM
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It takes time to get it all fixed up... but people, if you want to see how unbelievable LOLA is going to be when it's all done, check out this amazing presentation from the NASA Lunar Science Forum, held at NASA Ames last month. This is by Maria Zuber, and - alas - it didn't survive the PDF-making process properly. I have asked if it can be fixed. But even so, it looks good. Check out the LOLA map of the floor of Shackleton on page 15. As I say I've asked for it to be fixed, so we'll see.


http://lunarscience2010.arc.nasa.gov/sites...files/Zuber.pdf

Other pressies here:

http://lunarscience2010.arc.nasa.gov/agenda

Lots of goodies.

Phil


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antipode
post Aug 13 2010, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE


Hmmm, impressive! Lots of interesting looking mounds on the crater floor. More of that fluffy volatile rich material that LCROSS dived into?

Some of the other papers are very interesting too. Recommended!
P
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James Fincannon
post Aug 14 2010, 05:51 PM
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"It takes time to get it all fixed up... but people, if you want to see how unbelievable LOLA is going to be when it's all done, check out this amazing presentation from the NASA Lunar Science Forum, held at NASA Ames last month. This is by Maria Zuber, and - alas - it didn't survive the PDF-making process properly. I have asked if it can be fixed. But even so, it looks good. Check out the LOLA map of the floor of Shackleton on page 15. "


Yes, it looks good, and is much better than what we have had and they are doing great work.

But there are some points that should be emphasized (and I do not think they are sufficiently)........

For a 25 m/pixel grid for within 25 km of the South Pole,
(1) Only 72% of the grid elements have at least one laser data point. This means 28% are empty, but the DEMs show them filled (interpolated). This is a concern to me because although it creates a nice continuous image/DEM, it needs an accompanying error map to help a user to understand the missing data, interpolation error, etc.
(2) The average number of laser data points in this grid is 1.5 +- 1.4. For a 25m by 25 m pixel, you would like around 25 laser data points to get good coverage with 5 m diameter spots. This means when the DEM is constructed, the height for that pixel is supposed to be an average height of the surface, but really it is the height average of from 0% to 12% of the surface area within the pixel.
(3) How does the laser data point treats the area it "paints"? Is this the average height within the 5 m spot or the highest spot or what?


With coarser grids (240 m by 240 m/pixel), the percentage of surface area with laser data spots is around 8%.

Thus the magic of creating the DEM (i.e. sausage making) has alot of aspects that people need to realize and see if it applies to their usage. I have been stymied from doing illumination analysis because of these concerns. Sure I can do it and have done it with my analysis tools and use either the DEMs or the actual laser points, but I cannot create an error bar, so I have to reassess this laser data DEM.
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zeBeamer
post Sep 1 2010, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (James Fincannon @ Aug 14 2010, 12:51 PM) *
Thus the magic of creating the DEM (i.e. sausage making) has alot of aspects that people need to realize and see if it applies to their usage. I have been stymied from doing illumination analysis because of these concerns. Sure I can do it and have done it with my analysis tools and use either the DEMs or the actual laser points, but I cannot create an error bar, so I have to reassess this laser data DEM.


James,
we discussed that offline, but I do not agree that we need to paint the whole Moon to have a realistic map at say 25m resolution. Indeed the current filling ratio of the 25x25m near the poles was 72% when we discussed that in June, but it will keep on improving.
The September release in a couple of weeks will have side products for each of the DEMs containing the counts of laser shots in each pixel. People can use that as a mask to see where you can be more or less confident in the measurement averaging (actually a median).
But I am not sure that is what will capture the interest of most people here. And having "gaps" in the DEMs to reflect the actual sampling would not necessarily make it better; I would expect most people want a full map, and do not want to do their own interpolation (they may not be familiar with the tools to do so) when they want to render a given region.
To reassure you, the data is not put through magic black boxes, and the workflow is actually pretty straightforward. It just gets messy to deal with when you have billions of points and those high resolutions.

QUOTE (James Fincannon @ Aug 14 2010, 12:51 PM) *
With coarser grids (240 m by 240 m/pixel), the percentage of surface area with laser data spots is around 8%.

Do you mean globally? In June, polewards of ~85deg, we had ~90% coverage at that resolution.

All,
The September release is coming very soon, and the DEMs will be updated this time, with more than 2 billion (good) points which went into them.
I updated the Celestia products, and they are already available here: http://imbrium.mit.edu/EXTRAS/CELESTIA/
They were made from the to-be-released 128ppd grid. Annoying seams should be gone (note to djellison and John). We are also releasing a 256ppd map (in four tiles), but I do not have the time currently to do it from that source (that would bring us to level6). And currently, it might be overkill. Others are welcome to try it out!

As for the new polar maps you saw in Maria Zuber's Ames presentation, this is not exactly what is going to be released. I'm not going into details here, but basically, the PDS release will still show some (reduced compared to before) orbit streaks near the poles. I will try to provide a better image of the South Pole, as it seems to be of interest here wink.gif

Erwan
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JohnVV
post Sep 2 2010, 12:40 AM
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as has been stated before these things take time
at least it is not1960 to 1980's and the only way, outside a big university , was on a tape drive and in published print
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James Fincannon
post Sep 2 2010, 02:49 PM
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"I do not agree that we need to paint the whole Moon to have a realistic map at say 25m resolution."

What is the meaning of the word "realistic"? It may be realistic for people who want to render topographic surfaces for illustrative purposes or animations or simulations that do not require interacting with the surface. But I think one would not consider it realistic if one is planning a rover path or doing certain types of illumination analysis.

I think you and your team are doing great work, but I think some accuracy/realism aspects go over most users heads and are ignored.

"Indeed the current filling ratio of the 25x25m near the poles was 72% when we discussed that in June, but it will keep on improving."

This is the number I quoted before and is what bothered me because the DEMs show continuous surfaces where they cannot really be definitive as such (other than interpolation). Yes, given enough time you should get "100%" (meaning, to other readers, at least one 5 m diameter laser spot within all of the polar 25m by 25 m areal elements). But I have a little trouble with the rationale of interpolating an entire pixel height based on maybe <4% of the area being painted by laser light (i.e. one laser spot for a surface that needs 25 laser spots to fully define). Maybe the LOLA data is meant just for a certain purpose and I am trying to use it for a purpose that was not intended and I should really use the stereo imagery derived terrain instead.

>The September release in a couple of weeks will have side products for each of the DEMs containing the counts
>of laser shots in each pixel. People can use that as a mask to see where you can be more or less confident in the
>measurement averaging (actually a median).

This will be helpful.

>And having "gaps" in the DEMs to reflect the actual sampling would not necessarily make it better; I would
>expect most people want a full map, and do not want to do their own interpolation (they may not be familiar
>with the tools to do so) when they want to render a given region.

Gaps would be no good in the DEM, but what I think some users would like is the number of shots per pixel (0 shots would tell them it is pure interpolation). It would also be nice to have an error estimate for each pixel (maybe based on the difference between the interpolation pixel height and the average of the heights of the laser spots within the pixel).

>To reassure you, the data is not put through magic black boxes, and the workflow is actually pretty straightforward.

Interpolation is kind of magical in that it is hard to intuitively know how the interpolation will work out all the time for every set of points. You are not simply drawing a straight line between points, it is much more complex.

>>With coarser grids (240 m by 240 m/pixel), the percentage of surface area with laser data spots is around 8%.
>Do you mean globally? In June, polewards of ~85deg, we had ~90% coverage at that resolution.

By this I mean, for a 240m by 240 m DEM, I created a grid of 5 m non-overlapping spots to fill it which gives you 48 by 48/ 5 m spots or 2304 laser spots needed to cover the whole pixel. Then using your average number of laser spots/pixel within 25 km of the south pole (136+-63), I get a maximum of 8.6% and an average of 6% of the area painted by laser light. Sure, the number of 240m by 240m pixels that have at least 1 laser spot is ~100% in the case, but what I am saying is the kind of interpolated height based on 6-8% of the surface area needs some sort of error bar associated with it, since it is very hard for any of us to figure it out just from the raw data.

>The September release is coming very soon, and the DEMs will be updated this time, with more than 2 billion (good) points which went into them.

This is great! Still, globally, this means you are covering ~.1% of the lunar surface with laser light. So will LRO be merging the stereo imaging with LOLA data for significant regions? Are you working with those guys?
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Rick Sternbach
post Sep 2 2010, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (zeBeamer @ Sep 1 2010, 03:57 PM) *
All,
The September release is coming very soon, and the DEMs will be updated this time, with more than 2 billion (good) points which went into them.
I updated the Celestia products, and they are already available here: http://imbrium.mit.edu/EXTRAS/CELESTIA/
They were made from the to-be-released 128ppd grid. Annoying seams should be gone (note to djellison and John). We are also releasing a 256ppd map (in four tiles), but I do not have the time currently to do it from that source (that would bring us to level6). And currently, it might be overkill. Others are welcome to try it out!

Erwan


Quick noob question; what's the difference between an LDEM file and a CDEM file? Just noticed all the new file names added.

Rick
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zeBeamer
post Sep 2 2010, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (Rick Sternbach @ Sep 2 2010, 11:42 AM) *
Quick noob question; what's the difference between an LDEM file and a CDEM file? Just noticed all the new file names added.


CDEM contains the counts. LDEM contains the altitude (discretized in half-meter levels).

Erwan

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zeBeamer
post Sep 3 2010, 09:20 PM
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Here is one image of the South Pole region as shown by Maria Zuber in the Ames meeting about a month ago. Click for higher resolution.

It's a 25-m DEM constructed from ~4000 profiles. The axis labels are in kilometers (stereographic projection around 0,-90).
Still a few blemishes, but impressive enough I hope wink.gif

Erwan
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Rick Sternbach
post Sep 9 2010, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE (zeBeamer @ Sep 2 2010, 12:56 PM) *
CDEM contains the counts. LDEM contains the altitude (discretized in half-meter levels).

Erwan


Oh, and I just noticed a lot of file names *missing*, like all the JPG2000 files. With my limited Mac software here, those were the only files I could get to look at and use in Terragen. I can get a file like LDEM_64.img to open in MacDEM as I did with the MOLA files, but now MacDEM can't figure out the height range (I think). Image comes out where I can see the terrain with directional lighting turned on, but the shades are all super contrasty and black-white splotchy. Probably time to get a new machine and better terrain software. sad.gif
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Phil Stooke
post Sep 9 2010, 11:57 PM
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Thanks Erwan - lovely map. I was sorry to se that Maria's presentation file archived at NLSF 2010 was messed up so we couldn't see the images properly, but this takes care of that one!

Phil


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