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Hayabusa Post-Landing & Science Results
pandaneko
post Jun 22 2010, 08:33 AM
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QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 22 2010, 12:57 PM) *
Short Aviation Week article today. Highlight: It may take up to six months to determine if the capsule contains any material from Itokawa.


The Asahi Shimun newspaper carried an article today. Gists of what it said are as follows.

1. JAXA had placed equal priorities on finding the capsule and the heat shield.
2. Neither NASA nor ESA had been willing to discuss details of heat shields for potential millitary uses.
3. The capsule was found 1.1 km away from the targeted landing position and the heat shield 5 km away from it.

4. The ablator material was found to have been evenly melted and enough thickess of it still existed.
5. Initial investigation did not find partciles larger than 1 mm, and their minimum expectation is 0.003 mm.
6. Innner container (sampling container) was extracted and showered by shots of dry ice and then plasma cleaned so that a thin layer was removed.

7. The inner container will be brought into a clean room and tilted so that a rubber spatuler can scrape out (seems rather primitive to me) what may be inside. What are found will be treated with a thin needle with static electricity under microscope.
8. If there are lots of them then they will know immediately that they are from Itokawa. However, if there are only a few,
9. It will take up to 6 months to determine that they are not of Earth origin.

10. Samples, if any are found, will be distributed to 10 universities across the world.


This last one, it differes from the info I got earlier. Mt earlier info said "best proposals from worldover". Who is telling the truth...

Pandaneko
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djellison
post Jun 22 2010, 01:17 PM
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Points 2 is heading toward the area of rule 1.2. Point 10 doesn't contradict the previous statement. You can send samples to leading research institutions around the world writing the best proposals, and 10 best proposals can get samples.

Rule 1.2 is probably worth reading.
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ilbasso
post Jun 22 2010, 07:47 PM
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Point 3, the distance from target, is absolutely incredible. We have come a loooooong way from the 1960's, when some manned spacecraft, coming down from only 100 miles up, were hundreds of miles off target. Even a few days before re-entry of Hayabusa, I wasn't 100% comfortable that she would make it into the re-entry corridor. It's amazing enough that she found her way back to Earth, even more astounding that she landed in her nest!


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nprev
post Jun 22 2010, 10:07 PM
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Well said. The landing precision is especially impressive considering that the spacecraft's reaction control system was inoperative...just incredible, really.


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A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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pandaneko
post Jun 23 2010, 08:09 AM
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QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 22 2010, 10:17 PM) *
Points 2 is heading toward the area of rule 1.2. Point 10 doesn't contradict the previous statement. You can send samples to leading research institutions around the world writing the best proposals, and 10 best proposals can get samples.

Rule 1.2 is probably worth reading.



Dear Administrater

I offer my sincere apologies. I was not aware of those rules. I should have! However, I did read them all, in fact, twice over and am in complete agreenment with what I read. I will abide by them with my future postings.

However, I am feeling a little uneasy about politics, rule 1.2. If I myself were trying to talk politics as my personal opinion I should be immediately given a red card. I know that.

However, I was simply translating an openly available newspaper article, not my opinion, is that why you say "approaching"? I should think so. In any case I will be extremely careful in future. Again, with my sincere apologies.

Pandaneko
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ElkGroveDan
post Jun 23 2010, 02:41 PM
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You're OK pandaneko.

To clarify, the ban on politics is not limited to just your opinion but anything that moves the discussion in that direction. I'm sure you can see why. Someone else may jump in with a response and then the discussion starts down the wrong road.

Thanks again for all of your reports from Japan and translations.


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pandaneko
post Jun 24 2010, 09:02 AM
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Dear administrators

Thanks, I am relieved and I will be careful. You must be leading very busy lives, watching over all those postings...

Pandaneko
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pandaneko
post Jun 24 2010, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jun 22 2010, 05:33 PM) *
The Asahi Shimun newspaper carried an article today. Gists of what it said are as follows.

6. Innner container (sampling container) was extracted and showered by shots of dry ice and then plasma cleaned so that a thin outer layer was removed.

7. The inner container will be brought into a clean room and tilted so that a rubber spatuler can scrape out (seems rather primitive to me) what may be inside. What are found will be treated with a thin needle with static electricity under microscope.

Pandaneko



I have had a look at JAXA English web pages prior to this posting and there is not this one yet carried.

The inner container was being opened today (24 June, JST) at ISAS in the presence of NASA and other overseas scientists. It will take one week to find out what may be inside the container.

I cannot wait to hear what they have to say! What was it like when the Earth was born! [please review section 1.3 - Admin wink.gif ]

Pandaneko
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pandaneko
post Jun 25 2010, 09:41 AM
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QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jun 24 2010, 06:13 PM) *
I cannot wait to hear what they have to say! What was it like when the Earth was born! [please review section 1.3 - Admin wink.gif ]

Pandaneko



OK, understood, reference to that sort of things either, not even as a joke. It is a bit difficult for me to make judgements about what I could post now as I would have thought that everybody would think that references to organic materials can easily lead to such jokes. My strong impression is that you wanted to further clarify to me just how rules are meant to be used for judgements in the strictest sense.

(I am not supposed to use such a word, here even in response, that is my understanding...). However, seriously, I think your attitude must be absolutely right, after I have given my very deepest thought to this reason. That is, logically, so, apologies once again!

There was a reference to organic materials in the same article I quoted and I must admit that it is my ignorance about such materials. I just did not think that there could possibly be organic materials on such a tiny body like Itokawa in near vacuum out in deep space in such cold temperatures.

That is why I just ignored to translate that bit, perhaps I should have ...

I should imagine, though, that a lot of other lay people may have such an association and connection, on hearing about the possibility of organic materials, i.e. commmon viewers to your forum. And, they may well like light jokes..., occasionally, am not sure...

To me, being a physicist, organic materials simply means things like beef stake, eggs, fish and the like!

I also think in terms of the real possibility of my joke sparkling off an endless discussions of the sort you fear. Given the seriousness of the forum I myself would think that there is very little chance. However, you must have had your own past dealings of that sort and I respect your ultimate judgement.

Anyway, I am likely to make similar mistakes in future. So, what follows is my last contribution and I hope that you will keep me as a watching member, if you could, please? If not, I will not be complaining, though. I came here just accidentally, after all...

Today's Asahi Shimbun newspaper here, with local circulation of about 8 million, I believe (the largest daily circulation here is by another local newspaper group and it is 15 million, I think) carried an artcicle about the sample container (25 June, JST).

The container did have a very small amount of gas in it and it was recovered. As far as I have checked out so far, there is no reporting about it yet on JAXA pages, either in Japanese or English.

They think that most of it is of Earth origin upon landing and constituents are yet unknown. However, there is a possibility that some portion of it may have come from Itokawa grains and they are very carefully checking the gas.

Pandaneko
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Juramike
post Jun 25 2010, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE
...organic materials on such a tiny body like Itokawa in near vacuum out in deep space in such cold temperatures.


The definition of "organic molecules" are molecules with covalent bonds with carbon-carbon or carbon-nitrogen or carbon-hydrogen bonds.
(see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound</a>)

This definition excludes things like: CO, CO2, carbonate (anion), -CN (anion). These are all considered inorganic.

Small organics include little things like: H2CO, CH4, and HCN. I'd also throw in that reactive intermediates such as: .C2. (diradical), .:CH (radical carbene), :CH2 (carbene) and .CH3 (radical) are all organic and will undergo organic reactions.

[Bonus trivia: Things with organic bonds but covalently bound to a metal center are considered organometallic. Most of the chemistry fun these undergo is based on the properties of the metal center. An example is ferrocene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocene]

It is really important to keep in mind that most organic molecules can be easily accessed by non-biotic organic chemistry. (Biochemistry is a subset of organic chemistry.)

****

There was a very recent discovery of a "pretty complex" organic molecule in deep space - anthracene. Check out:
http://www.physorg.com/news196334906.html

Finding organics on Itokawa is not weird at all, but which compounds and how much will give interesting information on the chemistry of asteroids, solar system objects, and molecular exchanges with deep space. (Isotope ratios will be very useful.)
It will be exciting to see the analysis results. Keep us posted!


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Hungry4info
post Jun 25 2010, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jun 25 2010, 04:41 AM) *
To me, being a physicist, organic materials simply means things like beef stake, eggs, fish and the like!


Organic materials in this case would mean carbon-carrying compounds. Methane, ethane, acetylene, etc. Pretty much all the interesting stuff at Titan.


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pandaneko
post Jun 26 2010, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jun 23 2010, 11:41 PM) *
You're OK pandaneko.

To clarify, the ban on politics is not limited to just your opinion but anything that moves the discussion in that direction. I'm sure you can see why. Someone else may jump in with a response and then the discussion starts down the wrong road.

Thanks again for all of your reports from Japan and translations.



Thanks once again, and I am choosing my wordings carefully here as best as I could, as I do not seem to have a means of direct response except using this exchange. I may have done it accidentally in the recent past, but I seem unable to repeat it, somehow...

No!, I was not! Not at all. On the contrary I was just simply blaming myself about the slip of my pen and tongue about it and at the same time regretting my stupidity.

Rules are rules to be adhered to and I clearly violated them without thinking too much about that particular phrase, without thinking about its possible repercussions.

The only way I thought I could make sure that it will not happen again was that I should not to take up my pen again in the first place, but, yes, I will if I get new useful info from the local press. JAXA pages seem to lag by up to a week or longer for the latest findings. They must be very busy. All my sympahy goes to them!

Again, with my deepest apologies for the confusion I must have caused to the regular running of the forum.

Pandaneko



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pandaneko
post Jun 27 2010, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (Juramike @ Jun 25 2010, 11:44 PM) *
It will be exciting to see the analysis results. Keep us posted!


A little more detailed info about the gas detection is as follows. This is from another local newspaper, Mainichi, date, am not sure, but after detection, of course.

The gas was found on 22 June during the preparatory opening of the container's outershell and it was recovered. The container is made up of inner and outer cylinders, diam. 5 cm and height 6 cm.

The tube had been designed to be exposed directly to vacuum while travelling in deep space and there are apparently 3 possibilities about the gas.

1. Itokawa origin, 2. air on landing, 3. the gas coming from resins and metals of the spacecraft itself

From now on the inner tube will be disassembled carefully and it is expected to be able to observe the inside some time during early part of July.

Even if something is found in there the possibility still remains of it being of Earth origin and careful analysis will be undertaken over the following few months.

What follows is the URL of the analysis team working on it.

http://mainichi.jp/select/science/news/ima...4000p_size6.jpg

Pandaneko
Reason for edit: Inserted pandanenko's own correction, for clarity
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pandaneko
post Jul 4 2010, 02:24 PM
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What follows is based on my Google alert and it has picked up a rather old newspaper article dated 24 June. I must say I am confused a little about all these newspaper reportings. Dates of finding the gas are different, one says 22 June and others say 24 June...

Anyway, this particular article says that it will take about a week (from 24 June) before the inside of the sample tube can be seen and if grains are found, then analysis will start in August. (Why not during July?)

Today is 4 July, but there has not been any news about anything as far as I am aware. Perhaps they have found something?, and not wanting to make a firm announcement just yet? I am totally in the dark...

Pandaneko
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pandaneko
post Jul 4 2010, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 4 2010, 11:24 PM) *
Today is 4 July, but there has not been any news about anything as far as I am aware. Perhaps they have found something?, and not wanting to make a firm announcement just yet? I am totally in the dark...

Pandaneko



Today's Asahi Shimbun newspaper here says that Hayabusa sample cannister was found to have grains in it. They are going to examine them one by one under microscope.

No more details available yet.

Pandaneko
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