Hayabusa Post-Landing & Science Results Options

[pandaneko]

Help! We are in a state of confusion!

Pandaneko offers his deepest apologies for the confusion. I am so sorry...

I have re-read the Yomiuri article once again and it seems that these larger grains came from the same first container, when they tapped it. It looks as if the second container has not yet been opened. Again, my deepest apologies...

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Pandaneko is also confused a lot, because JAXA said that the second container was going to be opened some time last week.

I think what happened is perhaps this. They had been meticulously cataloging the grains in the first container (1500 EM size grains and 60 OM size grains), and when they were satisfied with all these results they just happend to give it a shake and it produced a lot more larger grains.

So, the planned opening of the second container was suddenly had to be postponed, I think... That is my guess at the moment, and that might mean we may find yet even larger grains in the second container. I am not too familiar with the details of these container structure.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Pandaneko is also confused a lot, because JAXA said that the second container was going to be opened some time last week.

Pandaneko

But, does not all this mean that at JAXA they did not know what they should have been doing and looking for in the first place? I am cross with them...

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

I confirm, from reading another newspaper artticle here, that those hundreds of larger grains come from the first container.

Apparently, before moving on to the second, they simply tapped the first can just in case and the larger grains just fell out like that. The thing is that when they first looked at the inside of the first container they did not bother to do that because the inner surface looked empty. They had talked about this idea of tapping the can before opening it, but they did not bother to do that because they thought there was nothing in there by the look of it.

So, the second can is still closed.

Pandaneko

[centsworth_II]

Thanks, Pandaneko, for all the help. It is difficult trying to understand what is happening from news reports. We all know how incomplete and sometimes flat out erroneous they can be. I hope you keep checking the JAXA site for stuff that might not show up on the English version. Are there any discussions going on in Japanese space enthusiast blogs/forums concerning this?

It is hard to envision so much attention being paid to microscopic particles in the container over a long period of time only to be surprised(?) by finding much larger particles.

[AndyG]

...they just happend to give it a shake and it produced a lot more larger grains.

I have this technique off pat with near-empty coffee jars.

Andy

[brellis]

After such a complex technological achievement, poor Hayabusa gets a pat-down!

[hendric]

Wouldn't it be hilarious, if after all this delicate searching, they open the other sample container and a few dozen grams of particles are just sitting there, up to several mm in size?

[elakdawalla]

Capsule yields more asteroid dust
Kyodo news

[pandaneko]

I hope you keep checking the JAXA site for stuff that might not show up on the English version. Are there any discussions going on in Japanese space enthusiast blogs/forums concerning this?

I am afraid I do not know of any blogs/forums. I do not even check up on JAXA website as they are very slow. For instance, just before uploading this I had a quick look and there was nothing about these newly found grains. Newspaper digests are much quicker and I check form them every hour during the evenings.

You may actually wish to check on;

The Japan Times, Daily Mainichi, Asahi Evening News, Daily Yomiuri, Nikkei (something, I do not remember)

These are all in English and must be more accurate than my translations. I myself do not check on those, really.

Pandaneko

[centsworth_II]

You may actually wish to check on;
The Japan Times, Daily Mainichi, Asahi Evening News, Daily Yomiuri, Nikkei (something, I do not remember)

Thanks. Ashi had a good, short review of the situation. Apparently there was a JAXA news conference on Nov. 29. Too bad we don't see a Jaxa news release and have to rely on news accounts. But the various accounts seem to agree on the basic points. One new bit I got from the Ashi account is about the complexity of the compartment and need for a variety of specialized instruments to remove particles. Before this I had envisioned a smooth-walled cylinder whose walls were wiped clean with the curved spatula seen in the previous JAXA release. Amazing that they worked so hard retrieving those 1500 microscopic particles and all the while a trove of larger particles lay hidden in what nooks and crannies I can't imagine.

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201011300334.html
The complicated interior structure made the work extremely difficult, involving the use of very thin needles to dislodge the particles individually and specifically designed spatulas to gather each fragment. They could find no more dust in one of the two small compartments in the capsule. Before proceeding to the other compartment, however, the scientist in charge turned the capsule upside down and tapped it to make sure nothing remained.

Out came hundreds more particles.

At a Monday news conference to announce the latest findings, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) scientist Toshifumi Mukai said, "We may have discovered many particles more quickly if we had used this method from the very beginning."

[MahFL]

The old saying "hit it with a hammer" comes to mind...... :rolleyes
Needless to say a 1 million yen hammer.........

[stevesliva]

Amazing that they worked so hard retrieving those 1500 microscopic particles and all the while a trove of larger particles lay hidden in what nooks and crannies I can't imagine.

There's a photo here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10519895

[centsworth_II]

There's a photo here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10519895

Comparing that photo with the latest showing the semi-circular spatula inside the sample compartment, I see nothing to indicate the relationship between the two. On the left, is that just an opening in the exterior of the return capsule through which the sample canister is accessed , with the sample canister still out of sight? Are large clumps seen in the left image obvious terrestrial contaminants from the landing?

[centsworth_II]

This is one possibility I see for a relationship between the two images.

Looks like a cylinder within a cylinder, seen on the left along the cylinder axis and on the right from the side.
I've colored what might be the larger, outer cylinder in both images orange and what might be the smaller,
inner cylinder in both images purple. If this is the case, the left image looks like it is exterior to the actual
sample area. The clumps of material in there are much larger than any actual sample described so far.
They look to be over a mm in size.

The image on the right looks like it might be an open access port into the side of the cylinder arrangement,
into the actual sample area.

This may be totally off but it is the only relationship I have been able to make out between the two images,
if there is a relationship between them at all.