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Red Dragon
Paolo
post Aug 7 2011, 09:46 AM
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'Red Dragon' Mission Mulled as Cheap Search for Mars Life
any opinion on this? would it really make sense adapting a manned spaceship to unmanned Mars landing? I am skeptical...

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I'm one of the most durable and fervent advocates of space exploration, but my take is that we could do it robotically at far less cost and far greater quantity and quality of results.

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Mongo
post Aug 9 2011, 05:37 PM
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I had a wild idea, does anybody know if it is technically feasible?

Instead of extending a drill mechanism out of the main hatch, would it be possible to simply drill straight down right through the heat shield? This drill would, after all, be built to drill through solid rock, and I believe that the material that heat shields are made of is designed for heat resistance/ablation, not rock-like strength, in fact they are quite fragile as I understand it. Or alternatively, perhaps the shield could incorporate a small 'cap' directly below the base of the internal drill mechanism, that can be removed upon landing. (It might be simpler and less problematic to simply drill right through the heat shield, though.)

If the drill is not required to be physically extended out the main hatch by some kind of robot arm, the mass and volume saved by not including the required arm mechanism could be used for additional instrumentation, not to mention that it would be a lot easier to extract the drill cores to the interior of the Red Dragon.
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Mongo
post Mar 16 2012, 01:04 AM
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From Emily's Planetary Society blog:

QUOTE
Moving on to new ideas, here's VP Kris Zacny showing off a huge drill for Mars subsurface sample acquisition. They have field-tested it in Antarctica (working with Chris McKay), and they have tricky ways of delivering samples from different depths below the surface to waiting science instruments. He also talked about how they've worked with SpaceX to figure out how the "Red Dragon" -- a Mars lander based on SpaceX's Dragon capsule -- might take not one, but two of these beasts down to land on Mars. They'd sit inside the capsule, and drill right through Dragon's heat shield to get to Martian soil, delivering the samples back inside the capsule to instruments.



Not to blow my own horn (well, not too loudly) but here is a post I made here seven months ago:

QUOTE (Mongo @ Aug 9 2011, 05:37 PM) *
I had a wild idea, does anybody know if it is technically feasible?

Instead of extending a drill mechanism out of the main hatch, would it be possible to simply drill straight down right through the heat shield? This drill would, after all, be built to drill through solid rock, and I believe that the material that heat shields are made of is designed for heat resistance/ablation, not rock-like strength, in fact they are quite fragile as I understand it. Or alternatively, perhaps the shield could incorporate a small 'cap' directly below the base of the internal drill mechanism, that can be removed upon landing. (It might be simpler and less problematic to simply drill right through the heat shield, though.)

If the drill is not required to be physically extended out the main hatch by some kind of robot arm, the mass and volume saved by not including the required arm mechanism could be used for additional instrumentation, not to mention that it would be a lot easier to extract the drill cores to the interior of the Red Dragon.
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Gsnorgathon
post Mar 16 2012, 06:26 AM
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Good call, Mongo! Now, do you have some suggestions about how they can avoid contaminating the samples? laugh.gif
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Posts in this topic
- Paolo   Red Dragon   Aug 7 2011, 09:46 AM
- - AndyG   ...and 1.2, and 1.3! I think the best thing w...   Aug 7 2011, 11:26 AM
- - pospa   Since payload capacity of Red Dragon to Mars surfa...   Aug 7 2011, 12:16 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (pospa @ Aug 7 2011, 02:16 PM) Sinc...   Aug 7 2011, 03:37 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (ugordan @ Aug 7 2011, 08:37 AM) A ...   Aug 8 2011, 01:24 AM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   Full inline quote removed - ADMIN No, the capsul...   Aug 8 2011, 02:27 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Treating Dragon strictly as an unmanned vehicle, i...   Aug 8 2011, 12:07 AM
|- - ElkGroveDan   My recollection from the earliest days of SpaceX h...   Aug 8 2011, 12:48 AM
- - ElkGroveDan   The Viking landers and MSL wouldn't fit in it ...   Aug 8 2011, 03:20 AM
- - djellison   QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Aug 7 2011, 06...   Aug 8 2011, 03:20 AM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 7 2011, 11:20 PM) ...   Aug 8 2011, 05:37 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Aug 8 2011, 09...   Aug 8 2011, 05:55 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 8 2011, 01:55 PM) ...   Aug 8 2011, 08:16 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Aug 8 2011, 01...   Aug 8 2011, 08:35 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 8 2011, 04:35 PM) ...   Aug 9 2011, 12:12 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Aug 8 2011, 05...   Aug 9 2011, 01:21 AM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 8 2011, 08:21 PM) ...   Aug 12 2011, 12:41 AM
- - ZLD   Just out of curiosity, are there any obvious appli...   Aug 8 2011, 11:44 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (ZLD @ Aug 9 2011, 01:44 AM) Also, ...   Aug 9 2011, 08:07 AM
- - nprev   If I'm not mistaken, I think that Red Dragon w...   Aug 8 2011, 11:51 PM
- - ZLD   QUOTE a couple of intermediate-sized rovers poppin...   Aug 9 2011, 12:06 AM
- - nprev   Jim, one point you have to remember about Red Drag...   Aug 9 2011, 12:48 AM
- - ZLD   QUOTE Driving rovers out the hatch is ludicrous, t...   Aug 9 2011, 01:06 AM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (ZLD @ Aug 8 2011, 08:06 PM) ...som...   Aug 9 2011, 01:24 AM
- - nprev   Yep; many ways to skin that cat. You could even pu...   Aug 9 2011, 01:30 AM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (nprev @ Aug 8 2011, 09:30 PM) ...Y...   Aug 9 2011, 01:36 AM
- - ZLD   Kind of like the tumbleweed idea thats been floate...   Aug 9 2011, 01:49 AM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (ZLD @ Aug 8 2011, 08:49 PM) Kind o...   Aug 9 2011, 02:30 AM
- - DDAVIS   I would have cameras at least pointing out the win...   Aug 9 2011, 04:12 AM
- - djellison   You sound like Mike Wolff. In a good way. Top hat...   Aug 9 2011, 05:56 AM
|- - ElkGroveDan   Think of the weather station and seismometer you c...   Aug 9 2011, 06:00 AM
- - Astro0   Of course thinking outside the box or in this case...   Aug 9 2011, 07:39 AM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (Astro0 @ Aug 9 2011, 02:39 AM) OfJ...   Aug 12 2011, 12:33 AM
- - pospa   We are talking about Discovery category mission, r...   Aug 9 2011, 11:09 AM
|- - algorimancer   QUOTE (pospa @ Aug 9 2011, 05:09 AM) ...w...   Aug 9 2011, 12:57 PM
- - Drkskywxlt   Although I think this proposed proposal (how's...   Aug 9 2011, 12:51 PM
- - Mongo   For a Mars mission, there are two kinds of distanc...   Aug 9 2011, 05:01 PM
- - djellison   It's not out of the question that the vehicle ...   Aug 9 2011, 05:18 PM
- - Mongo   I had a wild idea, does anybody know if it is tech...   Aug 9 2011, 05:37 PM
|- - Mongo   From Emily's Planetary Society blog: QUOTE Mo...   Mar 16 2012, 01:04 AM
|- - Gsnorgathon   Good call, Mongo! Now, do you have some sugges...   Mar 16 2012, 06:26 AM
- - ZLD   Drilling through the bottom is a possibility, as i...   Aug 9 2011, 05:53 PM
- - Fran Ontanaya   It may be robust enough to survive a winter buried...   Aug 9 2011, 07:05 PM
- - lyford   Delurking in this thread just long enough to say H...   Aug 9 2011, 11:30 PM
- - MarsInMyLifetime   I'm new to UMSF, but a long-time advocate of r...   Aug 10 2011, 06:08 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (MarsInMyLifetime @ Aug 10 2011, 08...   Aug 10 2011, 08:06 AM
|- - MarsInMyLifetime   QUOTE (ugordan @ Aug 10 2011, 02:06 AM) ....   Aug 10 2011, 04:08 PM
- - Fran Ontanaya   Maybe it could orbit Mars, mapping with a big gamm...   Aug 12 2011, 02:20 AM
- - ZLD   QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Aug 11 2011, 06...   Aug 12 2011, 02:43 AM
|- - ElkGroveDan   QUOTE (ZLD @ Aug 11 2011, 07:43 PM) Jim, ...   Aug 12 2011, 05:56 AM
- - Greg Hullender   I hate to appear to agree with Jim, but I'm ju...   Aug 12 2011, 03:33 AM
- - stevesliva   On the other hand, NASA also has a history of desi...   Aug 12 2011, 05:45 AM
- - nprev   "A solar-powered rover lasting for over seven...   Aug 12 2011, 07:15 AM
- - djellison   Jim has been asked, in private, and publicly, by U...   Aug 12 2011, 08:00 AM
- - SteveM   "The idea is like grass, It craves light, lik...   Aug 12 2011, 04:48 PM
- - Drkskywxlt   I think people have posted several ideas of how SO...   Aug 12 2011, 05:08 PM
- - Astro0   "...but I don't think any of that science...   Aug 13 2011, 06:32 AM
|- - Drkskywxlt   QUOTE (Astro0 @ Aug 13 2011, 01:32 AM) Oh...   Aug 15 2011, 12:50 PM
- - Oersted   I imagine a snake crawling out of the hatch... ht...   Aug 13 2011, 08:00 PM
- - Syrinx   It might be worth simply emailing Elon Musk and as...   Aug 18 2011, 08:42 PM
- - Paolo   there is an article on Red Dragon on this week...   Nov 9 2011, 07:45 PM
- - Drkskywxlt   Usually teams that are proposing Discovery or NF m...   Nov 9 2011, 08:46 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Drkskywxlt @ Nov 9 2011, 12:46 PM)...   Nov 9 2011, 09:50 PM
|- - vjkane   ADMIN - Full inline quote removed. You should know...   Nov 9 2011, 10:25 PM
- - Phil Stooke   True! But nobody else is likely to steal this...   Nov 9 2011, 09:26 PM
- - djellison   And someone else could also propose a Red Dragon p...   Nov 9 2011, 10:36 PM
- - Drkskywxlt   Dragon is a platform, Red Dragon is a specific mis...   Nov 10 2011, 11:26 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Drkskywxlt @ Nov 10 2011, 03:26 AM...   Nov 10 2011, 02:45 PM
- - nprev   Well, let's redirect by all means, then! ...   Nov 10 2011, 03:46 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 10 2011, 07:46 AM) Any...   Nov 10 2011, 03:54 PM
- - Drkskywxlt   I would definitely expect foreign instruments (or ...   Nov 10 2011, 03:59 PM
- - nprev   Hmm. All that terrific payload capacity... What d...   Nov 10 2011, 04:08 PM
- - Paolo   this presentation of Red Dragon has been posted on...   Dec 13 2011, 07:04 PM
- - Kaputnik   It's been interesting to figure out how Red Dr...   Sep 16 2012, 03:03 PM
- - Mongo   That's the big question -- whether it would be...   Sep 17 2012, 05:17 PM
- - Kaputnik   A 'nearly stock' Dragon would be aiming to...   Sep 17 2012, 08:39 PM
- - Mongo   Acording to SpaceX, the dry mass of a Dragon is 3,...   Sep 17 2012, 09:30 PM
- - Kaputnik   A 3180kg Dragon does not have, as far as I am awar...   Sep 17 2012, 11:29 PM


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