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Red Dragon
nprev
post Aug 8 2011, 11:51 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, I think that Red Dragon would probably utilize a combination of parachutes & a powered descent system of some sort.

It could well be a nice landing system for Mars, actually. I could see a couple of intermediate-sized rovers popping out of the hatch down a ramp...followed by an antenna. You could stuff all kinds of DTE comm gear, meteorological instruments, etc. in all that space as well!


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ZLD
post Aug 9 2011, 12:06 AM
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QUOTE
a couple of intermediate-sized rovers popping out of the hatch down a ramp


That was actually my first thought as well; possibly even updated Pathfinder rovers, to minimize costs.
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Jim from NSF.com
post Aug 9 2011, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 8 2011, 04:35 PM) *
Very very obviously, that is NOT the point I was making. You really are very very determined to start an argument rather than have a discussion, aren't you.


Then state your point because you haven't revealed andI know my mind set and it is not wrong.

The Dragon is a poor design to deliver any but people and goods. Same thing would apply to the Orion capsule or CST-100. They are structurally wrong for other tasks. They are designed to contain their payloads.

Driving rovers out the hatch is ludicrous, the hatch is small and high off the surface.
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nprev
post Aug 9 2011, 12:48 AM
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Jim, one point you have to remember about Red Dragon and SpaceX's general mindset: The objective here is to demonstrate the ability to land, uh, biological things on Mars someday. Their vested interest is to develop this capability. Test flight(s) towards that end would be a waste to do using mass simulators; why not take even somewhat kludged-together instrumentation & do some science?

"Kludged-together" might well be an unjust characterization, actually. I don't think that the constraints introduced by preserving the design of the root Dragon system in Red Dragon are insurmountable barriers at all to truly innovative thinking & design.


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ZLD
post Aug 9 2011, 01:06 AM
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QUOTE
Driving rovers out the hatch is ludicrous, the hatch is small and high off the surface.


Hastiness aside, I think some type of inflatable ramp could be used such as those found on airplanes like this one, sans the mouthbreathers of course.
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djellison
post Aug 9 2011, 01:21 AM
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QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Aug 8 2011, 05:12 PM) *
Driving rovers out the hatch is ludicrous, the hatch is small and high off the surface.


And yet again, Jim, you argue against something I've not proposed. I didn't propose delivering PHX's instruments. I didn't propose driving a rover out of the door. Yet you decided to have an argument with me about such things.

I have made my point - and made it clearly. The issue is not how to deliver payloads previously sent to Mars with Dragon. It's what payloads could you send to Mars with Dragon. You continue to ignore that simple statement and start arguments over things I've not said or even inferred.

ADMIN MODE:
Consider this a public administrator warning Jim - stop trying to start arguments with people. This has been an ongoing problem with you over the years. Your attitude continues to be mutually exclusive with that of constructive discussion. Your behavior is confrontational and rude, and this is not just my opinion, but that of many of the admin team and other UMSF members as well.

Might I suggest you do as promised and go back to lurking. Further posting in this manor, and we'll simply suspend your account.

Again.
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centsworth_II
post Aug 9 2011, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE (ZLD @ Aug 8 2011, 08:06 PM) *
...some type of inflatable ramp...
And the rover would not have to drive down the ramp, it could be folded into a ball like a MER within its balloon cocoon. The Balled rover could roll down the ramp and then unfold and stand up.
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nprev
post Aug 9 2011, 01:30 AM
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Yep; many ways to skin that cat. You could even push it out the hatch & let it bounce around.

And that's just off the tops of the heads of us amateurs. Pros could do things that would make our eyes pop out, surely.


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centsworth_II
post Aug 9 2011, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (nprev @ Aug 8 2011, 09:30 PM) *
...You could even push it out the hatch & let it bounce around....
Right! Forget about the ramp.
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ZLD
post Aug 9 2011, 01:49 AM
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Kind of like the tumbleweed idea thats been floated for a while now? That could definitely be interesting, especially if they packed the entire craft full (10 m^3 worth!).
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centsworth_II
post Aug 9 2011, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE (ZLD @ Aug 8 2011, 08:49 PM) *
Kind of like the tumbleweed idea...
I'd say this proposal is ready to write up! laugh.gif
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DDAVIS
post Aug 9 2011, 04:12 AM
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I would have cameras at least pointing out the windows and recording full frame rate HD video of the landing and the later view outside under changing lighting conditions. If possible a group of cameras would be at the apex of the lander exposed after landing by a movable cover to provide a panoramic view of the landscape and skies. I imagine several dedicated panorama cameras pre set to make a 360 degree mosaic. A fisheye all sky camera with some tilt capability would be above the middle of this camera 'ring' to image clouds, etc at variable resolution. 4K resolution color 'all skies' would be obtained in time lapse mode to show the sky and a 'slice' of the scenery. Modern planetarium video theaters can reproduce such a view in a dome projection for specialist and general audiences. Such sequences would take time to send back, but that's what I would try to do.
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djellison
post Aug 9 2011, 05:56 AM
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You sound like Mike Wolff. In a good way.

Top hatch could become deployables for cameras, comms and power.

A 4k sky-cam is more of a downlink constraint rather than a enabled-by-dragon constraint though.
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ElkGroveDan
post Aug 9 2011, 06:00 AM
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Think of the weather station and seismometer you could install with that much space and payload.


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Astro0
post Aug 9 2011, 07:39 AM
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Of course thinking outside the box or in this case the capsule, who says that anything needs to be deployed from "inside" once you've landed.

With, I would think, small modifications to the vehicle, you could house a series of deployable containers that are released from the main fuselage during the last part of the descent. Possibly released through opened hatches or ejected compartments (like segments of an orange).
These individual components could then parchute (or parachute+bounce) to the surface over a wider area.

Think of the way that MSL's backshell and heatshield will drop off those weights during descent.

I imagine that during a parchute+powered descent by Red Dragon the descent velocity would be relatively low at the time you would 'deploy' these science containers which could house remote sensing gear, rovers, tumbleweeds etc and all of their data relayed back (intranet-style) to the main descent vehicle for store/relay back to Earth. The main lander has a stack of cameras and carries the prime communication gear (as backup, smaller UHF links on the components for bent-pipe relay via orbiting spacecraft).

Just about anything is possible here, after all, most of this conversation is based on a capsule that hasn't been finally designed or built to do the job of going to and landing on Mars. All we have is an idea, a video (so I'm told), a graphic and thankfully a whole bunch of people here with some imagination and an interest in exploration. wink.gif
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