[X] My Assistant

[chaosman]

A pretty good summary/discussion of the "biologic origin for marbles" topic can be found here:

http://aix1.uottawa.ca/~weinberg/mars/

I do not agree in everything discussed there and have found some additional evidence (e.g. a subtle mirror symetry) but I think it's a pretty good summary for everyone new to the topic.

Neither I nor the site above state to have found "THE PROOF".

But I think a lot of evidence has been collected in the images.

But see for yourself and judge for yourself.

[Wes]

This is cross-posted from another forum I have participated in concerning the spherule mystery...

I have refined my theory on the blueberries. The more I think about it, the more I think this "globules from below" theory is the most viable explanation. Biology may or may not be involved, but I don't think the globules are themselves living entities.

As the salton sea evaporated, and the water/brine got thicker and denser, (and colder?) a crust of minerals formed on top of the water. There was darker gooey mud on the bottom of the body of water (probably pretty shallow by now) that, consisting of now fresher water, and material that was lighter (masswise) than the liquid but highly concentrated brine mixture above it. This caused globules of darker muddy goop on the bottom to begin separating and rising toward the top, many trailing a string of goop with them.

When they reached the bottom side of the crust where crystals were forming, they lodged there, sometimes in softer stuff, trapping globule and trailer. Sometimes they lodged up against crystals. The indentations on the sides of the soft blueberries are due to this lodging against a crystalline underside. Sometimes, the bottom globules lodged up against a flat side of a crystal, and before the hardening process occurred, they flattened on one side. Some hit areas where the shape was basically unaffected.

Over time as crystalline mush grew thicker and thicker, encircling the globules closer to the surface and catching new globules at the descending crystalline surface on the underside.

As for what the meteor strike did, probably nothing more than fracture the already hardened layer we now see, and freeing a few blueberries from their crystalline prisons to be with their cousins that have eroded out of the top of the crust.

I'll leave the composition of the crust and berries up to geologists, chemists, and (hopefully?) biologists who have a much better clue about what these materials might be.

Perhaps? Does this scenario seem reasonable?

[chaosman]

hmmm...that is...well...it seems a little bit "constructed" to me...but of course can't be ruled out...

I'm not a geologist...I'm a molecular biologist...

I would say:

They look biologic in origin ... so maybe the easiest way to to describe their origin is to think about a biologic origin...I have no problem with that option.

But as I already stated: I can't rule out your explanation.

[Wes]

Well I'm not against finding life on Mars, I would love for it to be there. I just think that when you add up the odds for life evolving at all on Mars (volatile subject I know) + unknown and fairly obviously shorter time window for it to have evolved + discounting our human aching desire for there to be life there + very different physical processes existing on Mars (cold, gravity, mineral profile, atmosphere profile), it just seems to me that its far more likely for us to encounter uncommon/unknown physical processes than life itself. In the grand scheme of the universe, I'm sure life "happened" elsewhere countless times. But I also feel that life doesn't happen often enough to pop up everywhere, in this case, virtually next door. Statistically, I think we're in for a disappointment when we are expecting evidence of life to be anything we can't explain. I feel it's much more prudent and easy to rule out physical processes than to prove life. We can reproduce all manner of conditions in labs and test physical theories. But it's gonna be exceedingly difficult to prove life.

I would bet my own improbable life that there are no sponges, grasses, segmented worms, crustaceans, or *anything* like life here on Earth except perhaps microbial life, yet reasonably knowledgeable people are spotting and identifying all those very things. All manner of experts and quasi-experts are declaring evidence of lifeforms.

I think we've all got a strong innate desire to feel we're not alone. We have to be sure we follow the straight and narrow scientific path and resist the temptation to veer toward that tempting feeling that this or that is a critter of some kind. You can pretty safely do that on Earth, where life has crawled into every nook and cranny.

It's far more likely to me that the spherules were borne of a relatively simple set of physical circumstances we don't yet know of than to have been the result of the complex circumstances it takes to begat life - especially in the kind of volume we are witnessing with the spherules.

[djellison]

I've not seen anything that would suggest biology at all - but plenty of things that can form geologically.

Doug

[Wes]

Oh, and by the way, the odds that the spherules actually formed exactly according to my theory are certainly slim. Although I feel "globules from below" is correct, the mechanisim that formed them could be any number of processes.

I guess it seems "constructed" because I singled out a single possible scenario involving fresh/salt water density mismatch, and even plausibly covered a couple of "yeah but..." issues. It could have been thermal differences due to geothermal heat from below or solar energy filtering through the lighter crust onto the darker muddy ground below. Or something else. No way to know that just yet.

The point is that there are relatively plausible physical possibilities that I feel we are overlooking in our zeal to find bretheren life on Mars.

[lars_J]

I'm sure life "happened" elsewhere countless times. But I also feel that life doesn't happen often enough to pop up everywhere, in this case, virtually next door. Statistically, I think we're in for a disappointment when we are expecting evidence of life to be anything we can't explain.

I agree completely with this statament.

[chaosman]

Well nobody knows about the probability that life can develop or under what conditons it can develop or waht kinds of life could evolve.

It could be nearly everywhere or nowhere except earth.

We just have to keep searching....

[lars_J]

Here's a 3D anaglyph of the "marble stem": (lower left)

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Shimon]

This is a great discussion. In the absence of definite evidence, we're just gonna have to enjoy the tension of not knowing and wondering what Oppertunity might show us in the next photo or in the next crater.
There really are so many unknowns surrounding the origin of life and the speed at which it evolves that the questions as to whether there is/was life on Mars or what level of development it might have reached can only e resolved thru exploration.