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What's Up With Hayabusa? (fka Muses-c) |
 Dec 2 2005, 08:26 PM
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#1081
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 Senior Member  Group: Members Posts: 2488 Joined: 17-April 05 From: Glasgow, Scotland, UK Member No.: 239  |
Here's a thought: was the shadow of NEAR ever visible (most likely on the last few orbits or other really close passes) on Eros?
Bob Shaw -------------------- Remember: Time Flies like the wind - but Fruit Flies like bananas!
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Dec 7 2005, 11:49 AM
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#1082
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Member Group: Members Posts: 204 Joined: 20-November 05 From: Mare Desiderii Member No.: 563 |
According to Matsuura's blog, the bullet may not have been fired, and the sample may not have been collected.
 Various other things still seem to be going wrong. (also JAXA press release (Japanese), Reuters article (English))Human-translated snippet from blog comments: QUOTE Quick update from the press conference:
It seems unlikely that the bullet has been shot during the landing on Nov. 26th. (Comment by PAKU: To be precise, the JAXA www page says that the operation team has not confirmed data that shows a shot in the downloaded telemetry.) Chemical thrusters have not recovered yet. Altitude of the vehicle has been controlled with the ion engine. (Note by zunda: the JAXA www page says that they are using xenon gas for the ion engine as propellant.) Hayabusa will leave Itokawa later than Dec. 14th. Journey plan is still being built. Details will be posted here after the press conference. |
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Dec 7 2005, 12:51 PM
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#1083
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 Member Group: Members Posts: 648 Joined: 9-May 05 From: Subotica Member No.: 384 |
QUOTE (JTN @ Dec 7 2005, 02:49 PM) According to Matsuura's blog, the bullet may not have been fired, and the sample may not have been collected. Various other things still seem to be going wrong. (also JAXA press release (Japanese), Reuters article (English)) They should not come home empty-handed... If they cannot take samples once more in time to get back home, for whatever reason, they should stay and try making highest resolution map of any body in Solar System...05 m/pixel maybe even smaller... Better than nothing, which would be getting back an empty "sample canister".. -------------------- The scientist does not study nature because it is useful; he studies it because he delights in it, and he delights in it because it is beautiful.
Jules H. Poincare My "Astrophotos" gallery on flickr... |
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Dec 7 2005, 02:37 PM
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#1084
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1636 Joined: 9-May 05 From: Lima, Peru Member No.: 385 |
QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 7 2005, 07:51 AM) They should not come home empty-handed... If they cannot take samples once more in time to get back home, for whatever reason, they should stay and try making highest resolution map of any body in Solar System...05 m/pixel maybe even smaller... Better than nothing, which would be getting back an empty "sample canister".. Understand of your uneasiness on that news. It is much better that Hayabusa return home as an excersice of the mission. This return home exercise will be useful to JAXA for other missions.  Rodolfo |
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Dec 7 2005, 02:42 PM
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#1085
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 Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2454 Joined: 8-July 05 From: NGC 5907 Member No.: 430 |
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Dec 7 2005, 09:37 AM) Understand of your uneasiness on that news. It is much better that Hayabusa return home as an excersice of the mission. This return home exercise will be useful to JAXA for other missions. Rodolfo When does JAXA plan on sending another probe to sample a planetoid? I think they should have Hayabusa return to study Itokawa, or send it off to another space rock to explore - if it will still have any capability to do so. Sending the probe home empty-containered is a waste. -------------------- "After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance. I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard, and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft." - Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853 |
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Dec 7 2005, 06:56 PM
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#1086
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 20-November 05 Member No.: 562 |
From an engineering standpoint, the best option is to try the return sequence. Besides Genesis and Stardust, this would be an interesting technological experiment.
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Dec 7 2005, 07:20 PM
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#1087
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 Interplanetary Dumpster Diver Group: Admin Posts: 4405 Joined: 17-February 04 From: Powell, TN Member No.: 33 |
QUOTE (hektor @ Dec 7 2005, 06:56 PM) From an engineering standpoint, the best option is to try the return sequence. Besides Genesis and Stardust, this would be an interesting technological experiment. I fear that we may be in a situation, if it does make it back, of not knowing whether or not it has a sample until it is examined. Talk about a nervous moment... -------------------- |
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Dec 7 2005, 09:01 PM
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#1088
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1636 Joined: 9-May 05 From: Lima, Peru Member No.: 385 |
A tought, for any robot which will bring sample back home as Hayabusa must not deduct an confirmation of collection the sampling but must confirm the presence of sampling with any kind of measurement from the sample bag as the example the change of volume size, change of the color, change of chemical presence.
Doug has pointed it out by questioning about how does Hayabusa has already picked up or not in the beginning post in this topic. Rodolfo |
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Dec 7 2005, 09:31 PM
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#1089
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 Member Group: Members Posts: 370 Joined: 12-September 05 From: France Member No.: 495 |
QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 7 2005, 02:51 PM) They should not come home empty-handed... If they cannot take samples once more in time to get back home, for whatever reason, they should stay and try making highest resolution map of any body in Solar System...05 m/pixel maybe even smaller... Better than nothing, which would be getting back an empty "sample canister".. Besides the engineering challenge to bring back the probe on earth, which is more and more looking like an impossible mission, I think they should try to return because they might have a very tiny sample even if no bullet were fired. Remember, the scientists were very eager to close the canister after the first uncontrolled landing because they were thinking that some dust could have been raised by the impact and, by chance, collected in the canister. Sure, this sample would be very far from the few grams expected with the bullets. However, good science can be done with the few tenths of milligrams from the Genesis mission, so results might also be obtained from a few specks of asteroid dust. Rakhir |
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Dec 7 2005, 11:16 PM
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#1090
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 Member Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 6-November 05 From: So. Maryland, USA Member No.: 544 |
For me, the question comes down to how thorough the high resolution survey of Itokawa is. If, for example, they haven't taken really good pictures of some of those large boulders, and they don't have a lot of confidence in getting back to Earth, I'd vote (if, of course, I had a vote) for hanging around and doing a more thorough geological survey of Itokawa's components.
Michaelc |
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Dec 8 2005, 04:06 AM
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#1091
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Solar System Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 10255 Joined: 5-April 05 From: Canada Member No.: 227 |
Bob asked about NEAR's shadow on Eros. I never saw such an image, as far as I can recall, and I'm pretty sure it would have appeared in a press release or image of the day. Actually, I can't recall any zero phase images, but there probably were some (just not detailed enough to show the shadow).
Phil -------------------- ... because the Solar System ain't gonna map itself.
Also to be found posting similar content on https://mastodon.social/@PhilStooke Maps for download (free PDF: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Cartography.pdf NOTE: everything created by me which I post on UMSF is considered to be in the public domain (NOT CC, public domain) |
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Dec 8 2005, 06:04 PM
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#1092
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 Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2173 Joined: 28-December 04 From: Florida, USA Member No.: 132 |
QUOTE (Rakhir @ Dec 7 2005, 04:31 PM) Besides the engineering challenge to bring back the probe on earth, which is more and more looking like an impossible mission, I think they should try to return because they might have a very tiny sample even if no bullet were fired. Much was learned of real life pitfalls in the sampling process. The same will hold true of the return. A lot that can be put to use on future missions can be learned. Perhaps something can be learned from the return that will save a future mission, carrying a sample from some asteroid, from unexpected failure on the return. |
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Dec 8 2005, 06:24 PM
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#1093
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2454 Joined: 8-July 05 From: NGC 5907 Member No.: 430 |
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 7 2005, 11:06 PM) Bob asked about NEAR's shadow on Eros. I never saw such an image, as far as I can recall, and I'm pretty sure it would have appeared in a press release or image of the day. Actually, I can't recall any zero phase images, but there probably were some (just not detailed enough to show the shadow). Phil Why was NEAR unable to return images from the surface of Eros once it had landed? Could they have pushed NEAR off the planetoid if they wanted to? -------------------- "After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance. I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard, and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft." - Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853 |
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Dec 8 2005, 07:45 PM
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#1094
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 Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1887 Joined: 20-November 04 From: Iowa Member No.: 110 |
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that they neglected to program NEAR to turn off its attitude control system after it landed so it used up its propelent trying to stop Eros' rotation.
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Dec 8 2005, 07:48 PM
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#1095
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2454 Joined: 8-July 05 From: NGC 5907 Member No.: 430 |
QUOTE (alan @ Dec 8 2005, 02:45 PM) Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that they neglected to program NEAR to turn off its attitude control system after it landed so it used up its propelent trying to stop Eros' rotation. I wonder if it did affect Eros' rotation?
-------------------- "After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance. I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard, and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft." - Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853 |
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