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Unmanned Spaceflight.com > Mars & Missions > Past and Future > Mars Global Surveyor
paulanderson
New discoveries to be announced and discussed:

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2005/sep/H...GS_telecon.html

Paul
RGClark
Any speculation on what it would be about?
I know one of the participants Jack Mustard has published on glacial features on Mars so perhaps it's about recent indications of glacial activity.


Bob Clark
paulanderson
Someone pointed this out also in another forum; the NASA TV listing for September 20:

"September 20, Tuesday
TBD - Mars Canals Live News Interviews - HQ (One-Way Media Interviews)"

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html

Theories, anyone?

Paul
alan
Changes in some of the gullies?
ljk4-1
QUOTE (paulanderson @ Sep 17 2005, 11:19 PM)
Someone pointed this out also in another forum; the NASA TV listing for September 20:

"September 20, Tuesday
TBD - Mars Canals Live News Interviews - HQ (One-Way Media Interviews)"

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html

Theories, anyone?

Paul
*


Mars Canals? Percival Lowell will be so happy.

cool.gif

Maybe MER found some fossils.

Did anyone ever do a more in-depth analysis of that rotini object Spirit found?
RGClark
QUOTE (alan @ Sep 18 2005, 03:08 PM)
Changes in some of the gullies?

That would be a major observation. It would mean gullies are currently forming.

Since the title is "Mars canals", perhaps this means channels.
Then here's another possibility:

Newsgroups: sci.astro, alt.sci.planetary, sci.astro.amateur, sci.geo.geology
From: rgregorycl...@yahoo.com (Robert Clark)
Date: 31 May 2003 20:04:29 -0700
Local: Sat, May 31 2003 11:04 pm
Subject: Currently forming channels in Tharsis, Mars?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astro.a...3bf162327793d0c



Bob Clark
Bob Shaw
QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Sep 19 2005, 03:57 PM)
Mars Canals?  Percival Lowell will be so happy.

cool.gif

Maybe MER found some fossils.

Did anyone ever do a more in-depth analysis of that rotini object Spirit found?
*


It was a message: http://www.venganza.org/index.htm
Bob Shaw
QUOTE (paulanderson @ Sep 18 2005, 05:19 AM)
Someone pointed this out also in another forum; the NASA TV listing for September 20:

"September 20, Tuesday
TBD - Mars Canals Live News Interviews - HQ (One-Way Media Interviews)"

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html

Theories, anyone?

Paul
*


Paul:

I wonder if it was just an unfortunate typo?

http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2005/09/...rs_ne.html#more

Bob Shaw
ljk4-1
QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Sep 20 2005, 05:58 AM)


While I too have a temple devoted to the FSM (to all fundies out there - it's a joke, get a life), I am sincerely curious about any follows that have been done on the rotini-shaped object imaged by Spirit. Even if it is just some strange rock formation, it should be investigated.

I get the feeling the MER team doesn't want to be thought of as following in Richard Hoaxland's seriously misguided footsteps, but I guarantee if and when a genuine fossil (or more) is found on Mars, they will be stomping all over each other to claim credit.

Not that the fossil or Mars or the Cosmos at large will care who found what, mind you.
odave
QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Sep 20 2005, 09:26 AM)
I get the feeling the MER team doesn't want to be thought of as following in Richard Hoaxland's seriously misguided footsteps
*


This is a good example of collateral damage done by the conspiracists et. al.

They could make credible scientists not want to touch the fossil/life thing with a 3.048m pole, in fear of being classified as a nutter. They could make us all such extreme skeptics, so that when something real is found, we'll never believe it.

It's like a variant of the old "boy who cried wolf" tale. In this case, you've got boy "A" crying wolf when there isn't one, and when boy "B" actually sees a wolf, nobody believes him on account of boy "A".

What would it take, in light of all the junk out there, for us skeptics & critical thinkers to accept something as real evidence?
SigurRosFan
Yeah!! Great pictures!

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/media/mgs-sept05/
SigurRosFan
Wow! New craters and New gullies??

djellison
Nice to see images that show that Mars is alive.

I'd imagine the next 6 months of MOC imagery will be on the MSSS website fairly soon - they tend to tie these things in

Doug
tedstryk
QUOTE (SigurRosFan @ Sep 20 2005, 04:59 PM)


I wish those images were at similar illumination angles. You can see a trace of the gullies in the first image, but it is hard to tell if they have grown or if it is a trick of lighting.
Jyril
Recently formed impact crater
RGClark
QUOTE (SigurRosFan @ Sep 20 2005, 04:59 PM)
Wow! New craters and New gullies??



The explanation on this page suggests it's a dry flow:

PIA04290: New Gullies on Martian Sand Dune.
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA04290

Nah, it's a stream baby!



Bob C.
SigurRosFan
All new MGS images and caption:

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/target/Mars
SigurRosFan
More:

MOC Celebrates 8 Years At Mars!

Key Science and Recent Changes on Mars: The Value of an Extended Mission for MGS

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/09/20/index.html

Suggestion that the new crater near the Ulysses Patera caldera (about 25 meters diameter) formed in the early to mid 1980's.
ljk4-1
QUOTE (SigurRosFan @ Sep 20 2005, 12:59 PM)
More:

MOC Celebrates 8 Years At Mars!

Key Science and Recent Changes on Mars: The Value of an Extended Mission for MGS

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/09/20/index.html

Suggestion that the new crater near the Ulysses Patera caldera (about 25 meters diameter) formed in the early to mid 1980's.
*


Just to play Devil's Advocate for the sake of science:

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA04292

Would the Viking Orbiter imaging system have been able to see such a small crater? Any chance it was covered by dust and uncovered by subsequent winds?

I am certianly not saying that Mars couldn't have been hit by meteorites over the past 20 years - hey, a rover's heatshield landed right next to an iron meteorite - but the Viking image does not look clear/sharp enough to have distinguished such a relatively small crater; but please prove me wrong.

BTW, this and the new gullies shows how team members go through those images with a microscopic comb.
dvandorn
I think it's pretty clear that the crater was not there nearly 30 years ago, that it was very fresh when first imaged by MGS, and that its ejecta has been significantly lightened in albedo since it was first imaged.

There is a lower-resolution image at this same site that shows the area at the same resolution available in the Viking image, and you can easily see the dark ejecta. And we can see that the dark ejecta has been lightened considerably between the first and second MGS images -- I can't imagine that this ejecta would get lighter, then darker, then lighter again. That's counter-intuitive to aeolian alteration; even when things are covered then uncovered, the fines would tend to remain, and the fine feathery ejecta pattern visible in the "fresh crater" image would be lost forever.

No, it's awfully obvious that this is a very fresh impact crater. And there's no reason to believe that such things don't continue to happen on Mars. It's a big planet, and it's closer to the asteroid belt than we are. There are more impactors nearby, and the thinner atmosphere promotes survival of impactors down to the surface.

-the other Doug
tedstryk
QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Sep 20 2005, 06:50 PM)
Just to play Devil's Advocate for the sake of science:

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA04292

Would the Viking Orbiter imaging system have been able to see such a small crater?  Any chance it was covered by dust and uncovered by subsequent winds?

I am certianly not saying that Mars couldn't have been hit by meteorites over the past 20 years - hey, a rover's heatshield landed right next to an iron meteorite - but the Viking image does not look clear/sharp enough to have distinguished such a relatively small crater; but please prove me wrong.

BTW, this and the new gullies shows how team members go through those images with a microscopic comb.
*


Based on the other features there, I think the answer to your first question is that yes, it could But the question is if it was unburied or new. Based on the appearance of man-made impacts, I would say it is new, but I don't know if something old and exhumed would have the same appearance or not.
ljk4-1
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 20 2005, 02:39 PM)
I think it's pretty clear that the crater was not there nearly 30 years ago, that it was very fresh when first imaged by MGS, and that its ejecta has been significantly lightened in albedo since it was first imaged.

There is a lower-resolution image at this same site that shows the area at the same resolution available in the Viking image, and you can easily see the dark ejecta.  And we can see that the dark ejecta has been lightened considerably between the first and second MGS images -- I can't imagine that this ejecta would get lighter, then darker, then lighter again.  That's counter-intuitive to aeolian alteration; even when things are covered then uncovered, the fines would tend to remain, and the fine feathery ejecta pattern visible in the "fresh crater" image would be lost forever.

No, it's awfully obvious that this is a very fresh impact crater.  And there's no reason to believe that such things don't continue to happen on Mars.  It's a big planet, and it's closer to the asteroid belt than we are.  There are more impactors nearby, and the thinner atmosphere promotes survival of impactors down to the surface.

-the other Doug
*


I noticed that the meteorite impacted near the edge of a crater. Did anyone check to see if the crater rim near the impact area was disturbed, such as with boulders rolling down the side?

I also wonder if perhaps the meteorite was from an old spacecraft that fell out of orbit, or one of the final rocket stages?
volcanopele
QUOTE (Jyril @ Sep 20 2005, 10:10 AM)

This new crater, ~25 m across according to the caption, is about the size of Eagle, right? Now Eagle crater is nearly filled with sand and it would be interesting to see if HiRISE could get a view of this crater to see how quickly it is being covered with sand...
Bob Shaw
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 20 2005, 08:39 PM)
It's a big planet, and it's closer to the asteroid belt than we are.  There are more impactors nearby, and the thinner atmosphere promotes survival of impactors down to the surface.

-the other Doug
*


other Doug:

I think the process may be a bit more complex than that.

Yes, Mars is closer to the asteroid belt, that's a given.

But, I suspect in that case that it has already swept up more of the possible impact candidates than it would have if it were in Earth's position. Contrariwise, Earth is bigger, and far more massive, so will tend to disturb any trajectories more than Mars would. Also, Earth 'sweeps up' objects faster than Mars, because of it's smaller orbital diameter (more chances of a body in an elliptical orbit coming close).

The bottom line: it's a confusing situation, full of contradictions!

Add in the higher-reaching Martian atmosphere, and the fact that 70% of Terrestrial craters occur in, er, water, and it's a helluva calculation. But a complex one, and one that may even have a counter-intuitive outcome...

Bob Shaw
SigurRosFan
QUOTE (volcanopele @ Sep 20 2005, 10:51 PM)
... is about the size of Eagle, right? ...
*
Yes. Eagle is 22 meters across.
Marz
QUOTE (djellison @ Sep 20 2005, 11:04 AM)
Nice to see images that show that Mars is alive.

*


It was exciting to see the recent activity, but at the same time, I wanted more. That CO2 could explain many recent fluvial activities is in some ways a let down, since I was hoping for more signs of water seeps...

And when I first saw the image of the huge volcano, I was jumping to conclusions that they found evidence of recent activity, not a crater. Methane gas, hot water springs, giant spiders building pyramids to Elvis.... I realize this crater is an important temporal yardstick, but boy was I expecting some real martian cheeze! pancam.gif
BruceMoomaw
I have to say that I was disappointed by the new news -- I was expecting to see a new water-formed canyon gully. Oddly, the most important piece of news may be one that nobody's mentioned yet: the new count of the rate at which craters are forming on Mars suggests that, since the Solar System's early days, the impact rate may be only 1/5 of what had previously been estimated! ( http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA04292 ) If so, most of Mars' surface may be a lot older than had previously been estimated.
RGClark
QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Sep 21 2005, 03:43 AM)
I have to say that I was disappointed by the new news -- I was expecting to see a new water-formed canyon gully...

You should be disappointed only if the proffered explanation is the correct one. The gullies seen on sand dunes prior to this were believed also to be due to liquid water. It is only when they are seen to be produced currently that the suggestion is made by Malin that they are due to gas release.
However, there has been published research that the gullies can be produced under current conditions:

Water Flowed Recently on Mars, NASA Scientists Say.
By Robert Roy Britt
posted: 24 August 2005
"If liquid water pops out onto Mars' surface, it can create short gullies about 550-yards (500-meters) long," Heldmann said in a statement. "We find that the short length of the gully features implies they did form under conditions similar to those on present-day Mars, with simultaneous freezing and rapid evaporation of nearly pure liquid water."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/0508...rs_gullies.html

Formation of Martian Gullies by the Action of Liquid Water Flowing under Current Martian Environmental Conditions.
American Astronomical Society, DPS meeting #37, #32.10
"We find that, contrary to popular belief, the fluvially-carved Martian gullies are consistent with formation conditions such as now occur on Mars, outside of the temperature-pressure stability regime of liquid water.
... our model indicates that these fluvially-carved gullies formed in the low temperature and low pressure conditions of present day Mars by the action of relatively pure liquid water.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/bib_quer...DPS....37.3210H

Formation of Martian Gullies by the Action of Liquid Water Flowing Under Current Martian Environmental Conditions.
36th Annual Lunar and Planetary Science Conference, March 14-18, 2005, in League City, Texas, abstract no.1270.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/bib_quer...LPI....36.1270H

Formation of Martian gullies by the action of liquid water flowing under current Martian environmental conditions.
Journal of Geophysical Research, Volume 110, Issue E5, CiteID E05004.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/bib_quer...JGRE..11005004H


Bob Clark
BruceMoomaw
Oh, I'm well aware of the fact that that new gully could be melted ice -- after all, a lot of it is already believed to exist within many of Mars' polar-region dunes. Even if it is, though, it's a less impressive phenomenon than a new gully bursting out of one of the rock strata on the sides of the channels would be.
spaceffm
Nobody has seen this cool gif animation?
Is it Ice under the ground?



http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/archive/PIA04295.gif
Bob Shaw
QUOTE (spaceffm @ Sep 22 2005, 10:27 AM)
Nobody has seen this cool gif animation?
Is it Ice under the ground?



http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/archive/PIA04295.gif
*


No. It's CO2 subliming and creating pits. There's an optical illusion at work here - it's not sticky-out features which are growing, but holes!
RGClark
QUOTE (RGClark @ Sep 22 2005, 04:01 AM)
You should be disappointed only if the proffered explanation is the correct one. The gullies seen on sand dunes prior to this were believed also to be due to liquid water. It is only when they are seen to be produced currently that the suggestion is made by Malin that they are due to gas release.
However, there has been published research that the gullies can be produced under current conditions:

Water Flowed Recently on Mars, NASA Scientists Say.
By Robert Roy Britt
posted: 24 August 2005
"If liquid water pops out onto Mars' surface, it can create short gullies about 550-yards (500-meters) long," Heldmann said in a statement. "We find that the short length of the gully features implies they did form under conditions similar to those on present-day Mars, with simultaneous freezing and rapid evaporation of nearly pure liquid water."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/0508...rs_gullies.html

Formation of Martian Gullies by the Action of Liquid Water Flowing under Current Martian Environmental Conditions.
American Astronomical Society, DPS meeting #37, #32.10
"We find that, contrary to popular belief, the fluvially-carved Martian gullies are consistent with formation conditions such as now occur on Mars, outside of the temperature-pressure stability regime of liquid water.
... our model indicates that these fluvially-carved gullies formed in the low temperature and low pressure conditions of present day Mars by the action of relatively pure liquid water.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/bib_quer...DPS....37.3210H

Formation of Martian Gullies by the Action of Liquid Water Flowing Under Current Martian Environmental Conditions.
36th Annual Lunar and Planetary Science Conference, March 14-18, 2005, in League City, Texas, abstract no.1270.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/bib_quer...LPI....36.1270H

Formation of Martian gullies by the action of liquid water flowing under current Martian environmental conditions.
Journal of Geophysical Research, Volume 110, Issue E5, CiteID E05004.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/bib_quer...JGRE..11005004H

  Bob Clark

Note that another researcher has suggested a different dune field shows both signs of current high ice content and gullied flow:

Martian dunes hide water secret.
Scientists have found evidence that large amounts of water-ice hide within massive sand dunes on Mars.
"If you're looking for a source of water for any future landers," said Dr Bourke, "I am advocating that you march up to your nearest sand dune."
Monday, 5 September 2005, 19:31 GMT 20:31 UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4217528.stm

This is of a different dune field in Kaiser crater than the one proven to have currently forming gullies. However, Dr. Bourke noted that dunes in the vicinity of Kaiser have high water content from GRS readings - and the dunes with the currently forming gullies are indeed nearby to Kaiser.
A dramatic image of Kaiser gives the impression the gullies here formed *very* recently (also within a few Mars years?):

MOC narrow-angle image E13-00738.
Traverse across crater and dunes on floor of Kaiser Crater.
http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/e13_e18/im...3/E1300738.html

It may be worthwhile to also search the Kaiser dune field for currently forming gullies.



Bob Clark
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