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ugordan
Regarding the very real possibility Europa harbors an ocean underneath the ice, I'm wondering whether there have been any estimates on how long such an ocean might have been sustained (I'm assuming it's still there today). Are we talking about the entire history of Europa, billions of years or a much more recent thing, only a few millions? I know Enceladus, which recently turned out to be much warmer inside than expected, could have been periodically heated, but not on very long timescales.
I'm primarily interested because of the habitability factor, obviously an ocean which freezes out every once and a while would not make for a good incubator to possible life.

Also, supposedly all tidal heating on Europa would cease now, how long would it take for the subsurface to freeze out, that is, what are the thermal conductive properties of the surface ice?

Admittedly, I haven't done much research on the subject and if the question was already asked before, I apologize.
Richard Trigaux
There are already a topic about an Europa orbiter and one about the Juno mission project discussing an eventual exploration of this ocean.



To reply your question, as far as I know, the tidal heating of jovian moons was constant over the ages, and thus Europa ocean could be liquid since the formation of this satellite. However in this matter it is difficult to be sure, perhaps some specialists think otherwise.

The situation of Europa (a large moon in a series of four) is different of that of Enceladus and Miranda. Large moons are expected to be more stable, while small moons are expected to be easilly tugged away, and thus undergo relatively brief periods of heating.

About life, it is expected to appear in a rather short time (less than a billion years, and perhaps as short as some millions) so eventually if Europa experienced periodic heating/freezing, life could have reappeared several time. But this is very speculative.
tasp
I don't imagine I'm an expert on this, but wouldn't Europa freeze from the top down, and warm (from tidal effects) from the bottom up?

This would keep the 'interesting' part of Europa, the bottom of the water layer, the last to freeze and the first to thaw.

If the heating and cooling periods (if there is variation) aren't too intermittent, we shouldn't freeze the 'potential life zone'.

IIRC, microbes have been found deep under the sea floor on earth, so perhaps potential Europan life forms have a much larger volume of Europa to live in than we think.
ugordan
QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 22 2005, 04:47 PM)
I don't imagine I'm an expert on this, but wouldn't Europa freeze from the top down, and warm (from tidal effects) from the bottom up?

This would keep the 'interesting' part of Europa, the bottom of the water layer, the last to freeze and the first to  thaw. 

That's precisely the reason I asked about the thermal properties of the upper ice layer - that's the only way for heat from the interior to escape into space, if the ice is very non-conductive, it could serve as a blanket preserving the warm water beneath.

QUOTE
If the heating and cooling periods (if there is variation) aren't too intermittent, we shouldn't freeze the 'potential life zone'.
*

If you don't freeze out, but you do cut out any heating, the organisms wouldn't have any thermal hotspots/vents on the ocean bottom to acquire energy/food from. So, simply keeping the ocean in a liquid state probably doesn't help all that much, but I'm really no expert on biology.
Rob Pinnegar
The history of Europa has to be very closely tied to its orbital resonances with Io and Ganymede. These resonances are what keep Europa's orbit around Jupiter slightly elliptical. Without the resonances, tidal dissipation would cause Europa's orbit to become circular (as it did with Triton) and heating would cease.

So the question is really: Have Io, Europa and Ganymede always been in these resonances (perhaps also with Callisto at one time)? If they have, you can bet that Europa's subsurface ocean has always been at least as warm as it is now. I say "at least" because, like all "regular" satellites, the Galileans are slowly moving away from their parent planet, which means that tidal effects would've been stronger in the past when Europa was a bit closer to Jupiter.
Richard Trigaux
Europa ice crust is not much thicker than the Antarctic ice shield. The later is already insulating enough to keep a thin layer of layer molten by geothermal heating. So at a very rough guess, the Europa ocean would freeze in at least thousands of years, at last some million of years. This allows it to be sensitive to periods where there would be no tidal heating, the later having a time scale of hundreds of million to billion years. So yes it would freeze, but no we do not know if it had periods without tidal heating. My personal opinion would be that the whole set of Jovian moons evolve slowly all together. If there had be a special event, a moon taking a special orbit, the strong resulting tidal heating would have quickly corrected this. So I rather think that the overal shift in orbits of the whole four moons is correlated, slow, quasistatic*, resulting into a relatively constant tidal heating. An oposite argument is that Ganymede shows clear surface fractures indicating a more localisated tidal heating event, ancient but not at the beginning. Perhaps the moons were set otherwise at the beginning, and when they reached their today orbits, there was a surge of heating. Of heating, not of freezing. We can wonder if Europe began to have liquid water at this epoch (3billion years ago at rough guess, after ganymede craters). This still makes a long continuous period of time.

*quasistatic: a movement slow enough so that at a given moment we can reason as if nothing was moving.
Bob Shaw
QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 22 2005, 03:47 PM)
IIRC, microbes have been found deep  under the sea floor on earth, so perhaps potential Europan life forms have a much larger volume of Europa to live in than we think.
*


I tend to agree - whatever rocky material is in the interior might well be colonised - but so also might the ice, especially above plumes from hot spots, leading to energy sources from outside as well as from within. The diapirs (as I'd interpret them) on Europa, plus the 'blue' ice look very interesting to me!

One aspect of the temperature regime which will be fascinating will be the way that warmth turns to cold at various points below the surface - I wonder whether there's an upper zone which might be substantially warmer than a mid-zone, for example, allowing for at least temporary colonisation and - of course - some luvverly dead bodies for us to sniff...

Let me rephrase that last bit...

Bob Shaw
Richard Trigaux
QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Nov 22 2005, 06:21 PM)
One aspect of the temperature regime which will be fascinating will be the way that warmth turns to cold at various points below the surface - I wonder whether there's an upper zone which might be substantially warmer than a mid-zone, for example, allowing for at least temporary colonisation and - of course - some luvverly dead bodies for us to sniff...
*


Interesting question.
On Earth, the inner circulation of oceans is dominated by very cold water flowing from the ice shields, and this explains why the bottom of the ocean is very cold (4 and even 2). Occasionally evaporation at the surface can also create currents of more salty (heavier) water, as the one which occurs in the Gibraltar straight. (On Europe there is of course no evaporation, by melting/thawing of ice near the top of the ocean may also produce differences in salinity).

But it is a little known phenomenon which governs the temperature layers in an ocean covered with ice: water under 4C becomes less dense. So that, in some circumstances, convection can be reverted: heat goes down, and cold gets up!. This is commonly observed in permafrost and is expected to explain many strange features on Mars. So the main phenomenon governing the repartition of heat in the depths of Earth ocean (where sun heat never goes) is this: a small gradient of temp, from about 4C near the surface (under the layers heated by the sun) and as low as 2C near the bottom. (this difference is mainly due to temperature). And if we heat this water a little, this heat sticks to the bottom!! Of course if there is an intense heat source, like black smokers, it will produce plumes going up, until it is diluted at less than 4C and falls again.

This law of the repartition of heat in an ice-capped water layer is as much fundamental, I think, that the law which makes air temp getting lower in an exponential way with altitude. To set a complete profile of Europa ocean, we need this law and the pressure as a function of depth.

Of course we must account also with diluted salts and gasses, which may modify the water fusion temp. And in some cases, (this was evoked for Titan) this temp can become very low: -50C was found in Antarctica, and -100C is possible. In this case, it would be bye-bye life!!


however there are some interesting phenomenon we can expect are taking place in Europa oceans:
-small but continuous geothermal heat leakage, which may produce slow but constant convection currents. These currents would be governed indirectly by the convective movements in the ice crust itself.
-occasionnal or punctual intense heat (volcanoes, hydrothermal vents) which may produce large uprises of water. These uprises would fall after, perhaps more violently than they rose.

This must also explain the strange features at the surface: in many places, the ice look like broken with a giand showel, and refrozen after. I think only a very violent phenomenon can produce this. It could be violent outgassing, called limnic eruption, where water suddenly bubble and release huge amounts of dissolved gasses. But it could be also caused by the tidal movement of ices. Or maybe the convection patterns in ices produce occasionnal catastrophic fractures.
RNeuhaus
QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Nov 22 2005, 03:38 PM)
But it is a little known phenomenon which governs the temperature layers in an ocean covered with ice: water under 4C becomes less dense.

So that, in some circumstances, convection can be reverted: heat goes down, and cold gets up!.

Out of thermodynamic law. The cold body is always denser than the hot body due to the shrinking process. Thus, the heat goes up and the cold goes down. smile.gif
QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Nov 22 2005, 03:38 PM)
This is commonly observed in permafrost and is expected to explain many strange features on Mars.  So the main phenomenon governing the repartition of heat in the depths of Earth ocean (where sun heat never goes) is this: a small gradient of temp, from about 4C near the surface (under the layers heated by the sun) and as low as 2C near the bottom. (this difference is mainly due to temperature). And if we heat this water a little, this heat sticks to the bottom!! Of course if there is an intense heat source, like black smokers, it will produce plumes going up, until it is diluted at less than 4C and falls again.

The heat never goes to bottom! otherwise, the cold water looks for deeper waters. There is a common Atlantic cold water that flows deep water from North to South and the warm water flows from the South to North of Atlantic Ocean. National Geographic has reported the discovery of underwater currents in an edition of this or last year. smile.gif

As far as my memory does not fail, the deep ocean water, the temperature is below than 0 degree centigrades approaching to -1.5 degree centigrade. Due to the high salinity of deep water, the high salinity avoids the forzen process of deep water.
*


Rodolfo
helvick
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Nov 22 2005, 10:13 PM)
Out of thermodynamic law. The cold body is always denser than the hot body due to the shrinking process. Thus, the heat goes up and the cold goes down.  smile.gif
*


That's generally true but it isn't always the case and water she is different! See this handy diagram. Richard is right there is an inverted convection zone in water bodies - this means that the deepest points of cold water bodies are going to remain around 3.9C. Water is weird and is more dense at 3.9C than it is at 2C. Since Ice is less dense again this keeps deep oceans of water liquid.
BruceMoomaw
Virtually all the papers on the subject have concluded that -- while the thickness of the ice crust may very well oscillate up and down, over periods of seveal tens of millions of years, between just a few kilometers and up to 50 km or so -- Europa's ocean has never frozen out completely since the moon was formed.

Indeed, this factor was the main reason why scientists before Galileo's data were so hesitant to make a firm prediction as to whether or not an ocean existed at all: if a liquid ocean existed at the start, it would likely sustain its own existence, because the friction from the tidal bulging and flexing of the ocean and the ice shell above it would generate enough heat to keep the ocean liquid -- but if Europa's surface water layer had been frozen full through and thus rigid from the start, its tidal flexing would be so small that it wouldn't generate enough heat to melt itself. Well, now we know from Galileo's induced magnetic field data that -- barring one of the biggest shocks in the history of science -- Europa DOES have a substantial subsurface ocean, and thus always has had one. (I've never seen any paper suggesting that the fluctuations in its degree of tidal heating resulting from the slow orbital shifts of the Galilean moons might, at ANY time in its past history, have generated enough additional heat to melt a fully frozen ice layer on it. I suppose this can't quite be ruled out yet -- after all, calculations indicate that Ganymede got jockeyed into a quite eccentric orbit about a billion years ago which generated enough heat to create its current still-molten central core -- but, as I say, I've never read any such suggestion about Europa.)
Richard Trigaux
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Nov 22 2005, 09:13 PM)
As far as my memory does not fail, the deep ocean water, the temperature is below than 0 degree centigrades approaching to -1.5 degree centigrade. Due to the high salinity of deep water, the high salinity avoids the forzen process of deep water.
*


Rodolfo
*


In more of having a reverted dilatation behaviour at less than 4C, water has another strange property: to the countrary of most bodies, the freezing point is lower at higher pressure. The law is about 1C every 100 bars. So that, in our ocean, at 10kms deep and 1000 bars, the freezing point is -10C for pure water. At more pressure, the temp law becomes normal (freezing point raises with pressure). On Europa, we have similar conditions of pressure than in our oceans, so this inverted laws must play. But there are still large uncertainties on the dissolved bodies into this ocean. Candidates are gasses (carbon dioxyd, methane, ammonia...) salts and even a high content in sulphuric acid was quoted. These bodies could be a great concentrations and completelly change the behaviour of the liquid.


The overall conclusion of all this is that Europa ocean must be nearby entirely as cold as possible, near the freezing point.

I learned all this in faculty, thermodynamics lessons.
Richard Trigaux
Thank you BruceMoomaw to quote papers which more or less confirm what my intuition told me.

When I was speaking of tidal heating, it was about the rocky core, when the papers you quote speak of tidal heating in the ice/water layer itself. Interesting to know that the water layer could sustain itself without the need of any volcanic activity into the rocky core.

However, as far as I heard, scientists are inclined to think that Europa has some volcanic activity like Io. As much? or much less? Difficult to guess now. We can expect that there is at least some hydrothermal circulation, bringing tidal heat out of the core, and rising up into the water layer. Such a situation is interesting, as it would result into "black smokers" hydrothermal vents which could be oasis of life, with abundance of energy to feed chains of ecosystems. But this situation could also result in a sulphuric acid saturated ocean, which would avoid any form of life to exist or even to appear.

If there are hydrothermal or volcanic activity in Europa ocean, we can expect it is turbulent, with plume of hot water rising up swiftly, and then falling again to the bottom when it gets colder than the 4C barrier.

If there is no such activity on Europa, we can on the countrary expect that the ocean is very still, very cold, with an unusual convection pattern due to the inverted law under 4C. But indeed the cold source is at the top, so that a normal convection should occur at least at times. Enventually, with an inverted convection pattern, this very still ocean can be very pure of any dust, and thus reach a surfusion state. In this case, catastrophic mass freezing may occur, explaining the strange upheavals observed in many place on the surface.
RNeuhaus
Thanks to Richard and Helvick for the reference. I am still puzzled blink.gif of this odd behavior so this is a new thing for me. I will *study* paper pointed by Helvick and Richard.

Rodolfo
elakdawalla
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Nov 23 2005, 08:21 PM)
Thanks to Richard and Helvick for the reference. I am still puzzled  blink.gif  of this odd behavior so this is a new thing for me. I will *study* paper pointed by Helvick and Richard.
*

Speaking of papers on Europa, I just noticed that Bob Pappalardo has a veritable treasure trove of papers on Europa (not just his, many people's) at his online class website at http://www.icymoons.com/europaclass.html (cool website address, huh?)

--Emily
Myran
QUOTE
RNeuhaus said: I am still puzzled  of this odd behavior


Did you mean the behavior of the water?

Its not so odd, at 4C water is densest and so tend to sink, so locally where I live we do see upheavels of lake waters when the surface water that have been warmed during the summer get chilled in the autumn and so turn themselves bottom up. This is actually something good, nutrients get brought back and is a reason we have planty of fish in these arctic waters that would have very little life if it wasnt for this fact.
So to adress Richard Trigaux, such convection patterns is the reason that makes me think something might actualy live in that ocean, that said with one emphazis on 'might'. Regardless Europa is our best bet in the solar system for a place where we might find something living.
If there ever will be funding for the extremely exensive project of sending one radiation hardened lander with one automated submarine to prove or disprove the fact is another question. Perhaps only in the very distant future.
Richard Trigaux
QUOTE (Myran @ Nov 24 2005, 11:40 AM)
If there ever will be funding for the extremely exensive project of sending one radiation hardened lander with one automated submarine to prove or disprove the fact is another question. Perhaps only in the very distant future.
*



There was already a discution of an Europa "submarine"

But before going so far, a lander could use a charge or chemical fuel to melt some ice, and thus to bury itself into ice and shelter from radiations, with only an antenna out. It this way it could also filter the water for search of bacteria remnants. But for this a landing place must be carefully selected. And anyway the lander will have to remain about one year into Jupiter's radiation belts, the necessary time for the gravitation manoeuvres to reach Europa.
After doing life experiences, this lander would run a seismometre to probe Europa. It could even carry a sonar to probe the ocean.
BruceMoomaw
QUOTE (Myran @ Nov 24 2005, 11:40 AM)
Its not so odd, at 4C water is densest and so tend to sink, so locally where I live we do see upheavels of lake waters when the surface water that have been warmed during the summer get chilled in the autumn and so turn themselves bottom up. This is actually something good, nutrients get brought back and is a reason we have planty of fish in these arctic waters that would have very little life if it wasnt for this fact.
*


It has been suggested that this very phenomenon might cause significant fluctuations in the thickness of Europa's ice crust over long periods. That peculiar density property of liquid water means that the remaining geothermal heat coming out of Europa's interior will generate convection currents that actually tend to top off at a short distance below the bottom of the ice layer, at the level where the liquid water's temperature has dropped to 4 deg C. The layer of cooler and less dense liquid water above that will actually serve as a layer of insulation to keep the bottom of the ice layer from being warmed -- since, while liquid water is very effective at spreading heat through CONVECTION, it's lousy at CONDUCTING heat. The result will be a slow buildup of trapped heat in the convective layer, with the top of the churning convective layer rising closer and closer to the bottom of the ice layer as the water underneath gets warmer and warmer -- until the convecting water finally does get warm enough that it rises to touch the bottom of the ice layer, at which point it will cause quite dramatic melting of the lower part of that layer, with the trapped heat in the underlying water ocean escaping at that point. This cyclic phenomenon may be a second factor -- along with the gradual fluctuations in the eccentricity of Europa's orbit caused by the other moons, and thus of its tidal heating -- causing periodic changes in the thickness of the ice crust over periods of tens of millions of years.
RNeuhaus
QUOTE (Myran @ Nov 24 2005, 06:40 AM)
Did you mean the behavior of the water?

Its not so odd, at 4C water is densest and so tend to sink, so locally where I live we do see upheavels of lake waters when the surface water that have been warmed during the summer get chilled in the autumn and so turn themselves bottom up. This is actually something good, nutrients get brought back and is a reason we have planty of fish in these arctic waters that would have very little life if it wasnt for this fact.
*

Indeed yes: water wink.gif . I didn't knew about the anomalies of water that is new form me. I don't live in artic zone so I don't see often snow or ice except ones from high Andean mountain when I sometime travel by car. I am not a good knowledge of water as a sand of dunes. biggrin.gif

Rodolfo
Richard Trigaux
QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Nov 24 2005, 03:02 PM)
It has been suggested that this very phenomenon might cause significant fluctuations in the thickness of Europa's ice crust over long periods.  That peculiar density property of liquid water means that the remaining geothermal heat coming out of Europa's interior will generate convection currents that actually tend to top off at a short distance below the bottom of the ice layer, at the level where the liquid water's temperature has dropped to 4 deg C.  The layer of cooler and less dense liquid water above that will actually serve as a layer of insulation to keep the bottom of the ice layer from being warmed -- since, while liquid water is very effective at spreading heat through CONVECTION, it's lousy at CONDUCTING heat.  The result will be a slow buildup of trapped heat in the convective layer, with the top of the churning convective layer rising closer and closer to the bottom of the ice layer as the water underneath gets warmer and warmer -- until the convecting water finally does get warm enough that it rises to touch the bottom of the ice layer, at which point it will cause quite dramatic melting of the lower part of that layer, with the trapped heat in the underlying water ocean escaping at that point.  This cyclic phenomenon may be a second factor -- along with the gradual fluctuations in the eccentricity of Europa's orbit caused by the other moons, and thus of its tidal heating -- causing periodic changes in the thickness of the ice crust over periods of tens of millions of years.
*


This cyclic behaviour on Europa ocea is interesting. I had some doubt of something like this, but without putting it in image like you.

When you say "hot water" it is relatively hot, say 10-30C, no more (assuming it is pure water). Because hottest than than, it gets much less dense than the water bellow 4C. So this two-layers model is interesting. We may consider too that the upper layer is very pure (it has no movements to mix dust in it) so it can get into a surfusion state (bellow 0C without freezing) and make the mixing still harder, or suddenly freeze at a whole, creating upheavals in the ice layer. I did not knew that water could be so dangerous.
tty
QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Nov 22 2005, 10:38 PM)
Interesting question.
On Earth, the inner circulation of oceans is dominated by very cold water flowing from the ice shields, and this explains why the bottom of the ocean is very cold (4 and even 2). Occasionally evaporation at the surface can also create currents of more salty (heavier) water, as the one which occurs in the Gibraltar straight. (On Europe there is of course no evaporation, by melting/thawing of ice near the top of the ocean may also produce differences in salinity).
*


That's not quite correct. The cold, salty oceanic bottom water is actually created in the subarctic parts of the Southern Ocean where the surface is cooled by the strong western winds and the surface water then sinks. The meltwater from the arctic ice areas is fresher (and often below +4 Centigrade), hence is lighter and stays at the surface.

tty
RNeuhaus
QUOTE (tty @ Nov 24 2005, 02:42 PM)
That's not quite correct. The cold, salty oceanic bottom water is actually created in the subarctic parts of the Southern Ocean where the surface is cooled by the strong western winds and the surface water then sinks. The meltwater from the arctic ice areas is fresher (and often below +4 Centigrade), hence is lighter and stays at the surface.

tty
*

I am enclosing a map of World Ocean Salinity. The most salty water are around in the equatorial zone, Arabia Golf, North and South middle Pacific ocean, in North and South middle Atlantic ocean, and Mediterranean sea. The polar sea has lower salinity (fresher) specialy ones of the North Artic.

http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/ear..._gif_image.html

Southern Ocean of Pacific and Atlantic has cold Antartic deep water that flows toward to North hemisphere along western South America coast and I don't know about which side does the flows of cold Antartic water to Atlantic ocean.

Rodolfo
Decepticon
When I visit Italy (Calabria) is the province where my parents are from, swimming in the mediterranean is a Salt bath all right.
tty
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Nov 24 2005, 11:01 PM)
Southern Ocean of Pacific and Atlantic has cold Antartic deep water that flows toward to North hemisphere along western South America coast and I don't know about which side does the flows of cold Antartic water to Atlantic ocean.
Rodolfo
*


The Antarctic Bottom Water (AABW) flows north at depth in all oceans. Here is a sketch that shows how it works.

http://ioc.unesco.org/oceanteacher/resourc...mass/fig7a4.htm

tty
scalbers
Thanks Emily for pointing out Bob Pappalardo's Europa class website (back in post #15). In addition to the website name, that would be a pretty cool class to take...
deglr6328
Though mainly intended as a refutation of Richard Hoeglands moronic claims to have originated the idea, this page is a wonderful chronicle of the history of the idea of an ocean on Europa. Surprisingly, the idea actually has its roots in the 1950s!!
Richard Trigaux
QUOTE (deglr6328 @ Nov 25 2005, 12:01 AM)
Though mainly intended as a refutation of Richard Hoeglands moronic claims to have originated the idea, this page is a wonderful chronicle of the history of the idea of an ocean on Europa. Surprisingly, the idea actually has its roots in the 1950s!!
*


Very interesting paper, very long but well filled.

So in 1971 thre was already people to write that the radioactive decay of uranium in Europe could sustain an ocean, and the later be detectable by its magnetic field!!

Another interesting remark is that 5kms2 of Europa water could be exposed to sunlight every year, due to fracturation of the ice. This makes a fair amount of energy, and certainly a thing to account with when studying the chemistry and eventual ecology of this ocean.
BruceMoomaw
The short version of the "cold low-density upper ocean layer" theory about Europa can be found at http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1824.pdf . The longer version, published in the April 2004 "Icarus", is at http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~rlorenz/europa.pdf .

However, a caution: one thing which I'd forgotten about is that the theorists say that such a phenomenon can NOT occur if either the pressure or the salinity of Europa's ocean rises to levels which, from what we now know, seem very likely for it (an ice layer more than 23 km thick, or a salinity level about equal to that of Earth's ocean). In either case, the density of liquid water simply continues to rise with decreasing temperature until the exact freezing point is reached, and there cannot be a thin surface "stratosphere" of low-density near-freezing liquid water. So it starts to look probable after all that Europa's cycles of thin and thick ice crust probably are entirely due to changes in its level of tidal heating instead.
ljk4-1
Two Large Lakes Discovered Under Antarctic Ice

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/06012...ctic_lakes.html

Antarctica has at least 145 small lakes buried under its ice and one large one
called Vostok. Now scientists have found the second and third largest known
bodies of subsurface liquid water there.
Jeff7
Link was truncated.wink.gif

There we go

I wonder if there are any plans to gather samples from those lakes?
Bob Shaw
QUOTE (Jeff7 @ Jan 27 2006, 02:57 AM)
Link was truncated.wink.gif

There we go

I wonder if there are any plans to gather samples from those lakes?
*


Jeff:

It's been discussed, but would be very difficult to do without contaminating the lakes themselves. Even getting *near* the fluid water is hazardous, sadly (for the lakes). It may, however, be too late anyway, as drilling close by may already have penetrated the 'no go' zone required for a sterile investigation.

Bob Shaw
ljk4-1
Newly Discovered Antarctic Lakes

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/...p3?img_id=17176

To quote:

"Scientists recently published the first thorough description of the size, depth, and origin of these two large lakes, called 90 East Lake (for its longitude) and Sovetskaya Lake (for the Russian research station that was unknowingly built over top it many years ago)."

Now I truly wonder how pristine at least the latter lake is.
ljk4-1
Special Public Event

Europa: Life Beneath the Ice?

What lies beneath the ice of Jupiters frozen moon Europa?

Almost certainly, a liquid water ocean.

Could life have evolved in such an icebound sea, growing in the darkness of eternal winter?

Europa is one of the solar systems most fascinating worlds, having the precious commodity of liquid water, fascinating geology, and even the possibility of life. Numerous science committees have judged it as the top priority for outer solar system exploration. Join the NASA Astrobiology Institute Europa Focus Group and The Planetary Society for an eye-opening presentation about Europa, how life can evolve in unexpected places, and the type of mission that might be sent to answer some of our questions. Steven Quale will show clips from the film, Aliens of the Deep. Time for Q&A with the speakers will follow the presentation.

Admission is Free.

Seating is limited. First come, first served.

SPEAKERS:

Chris McKay, NASA Ames, Planetary Scientist
Torrence Johnson, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Galileo Project Scientist
Bob Pappalardo, University of Colorado, Boulder, Planetary Scientist
Steven Quale, filmmaker and co-Director of Aliens of the Deep
Bruce Betts, Moderator, The Planetary Society, Director of Projects

Date: Sunday, February 26, 2006
Time: 7:00 9:00 PM

Location: NASA Ames Research Center
Building 943, Eagle Room
Moffett Field, CA
Directions: Exit off Hwy 101

This event is presented by The Planetary Societyin affiliation with The NASA Astrobiology Institute Europa Focus Group.

If you need additional information, please contact The Planetary Society, 626-793-5100

http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects...ropa_event.html
ljk4-1
THE PITS

- Deep Ocean Mining In Prospect

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Deep_Oce...n_Prospect.html

St Louis MO (SPX) Feb 19, 2006 - A Canadian geologist predicts the world is on
the brink of a new era of deep-ocean mining of mineral deposits. Steven Scott,
with the University of Toronto, said advances in marine geology and deep-ocean
technology have combined to make possible going more than two kilometers (about
6,000 feet) underwater for gold and other minerals, and two start-up
marine-mining companies - Nautilus Minerals and Neptune Minerals - are actively
exploring deep seafloor deposits.

-----------
WATER WORLD

- Scientists Urge Responsible Deep Sea Vent Research

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Scientis...t_Research.html

St Louis MO (SPX) Feb 19, 2006 - Ocean scientists have asked the international
community to develop responsible research guidelines for deep sea vents, which
are among the world's most extreme ecosystems, but which are being studied more
frequently and could be damaged by human activities.
AlexBlackwell
Today's Planetary Radio podcast (Europa: Life Beneath the Ice?) is featuring an interview with Torrence Johnson, Chris McKay, and Bob Pappalardo.
ljk4-1
Title: Exploring Europa's Ocean: A Challenge for Marine Technology of this Century

Authors: Carsey, F.
Chen, G.
Cutts, J.
French, L.
Kern, R.
Lane, A.
Stolorz, P.
Zimmerman, W.
Ballou, P.

Issue Date: 2000

Citation: Marine Technology Society Journal
Washington D.C., USA

Abstract: The Galileo spacecraft has sent back tantalizing image data hinting at a vast ocean beneath a thick ice crust on Europa, one of Jupiter's moons which is about the size of our moon.

URI: http://hdl.handle.net/2014/13849

http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/handle/2014/13849
ljk4-1
ERS-2 helps detect massive rivers under Antarctica

British scientists have discovered rivers the size of the Thames in London
flowing hundreds of miles under the Antarctica ice shelf by examining small
changes in elevation, observed by ESAs ERS-2 satellite, in the surface of the
oldest, thickest ice in the region, according to an article published in Nature
this week.

Full story at:

http://www.esa.int/esaEO/SEMA94OFGLE_planet_0.html


ICE WORLD

- Antarctic Subglacial Rivers Are Found

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Antarcti..._Are_Found.html

London (UPI) Apr 20, 2006 - British scientists say plans are to drill beneath
the frozen wastes of the Antarctic, to investigate subglacial lakes, are being
reviewed.
Richard Trigaux
What is incredible is that, seemingly, it is the geothermal flux which makes all this ice melt. This geothermal flux seems something weak at human scale, but at the scale of a continent, it is enough to feed a large river of melting ice.
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