USSR has experience in sample return missions. i remain optimistic...

I suspect its lower cost has little to do with faster-cheaper-better approach. The labor costs in Russia are presumably much lower than in U.S.

There is also, from what I understand, some Phobos-88 hardware being used.

Really? That would put Phoenix to shame, in terms of reuse of mothballed hardware. I guess it depends on how much hardware you're talking about -- there are other missions that used leftover bits from other missions. Notably the Cassini WAC which uses optics built as flight spares for Voyager.

--Emily

Wasn't the Voyager imaging system itself copied from Mariner 10's imager? Spaceflight is full of hand-me-downs! IIRC Voyager was originally going to have something similar to the Pioneer 10/11 Imaging Photopolarimeter

And wasn't Magellan's main radio dish a flight spare from the Voyagers? It makes sense to use old or mothballed spacecraft hardware if it's in perfectly good order, to reduce costs. Galileo went for a new and risky umbrella type radio dish which ended up failing. I doubt that design will ever be used again.




From what we learned from Voyager's stunningly beautiful images, it would have been criminal to have done that.



I wish Phobos Grunt every success!

Actually, that deployable umbrella-dish antenna design wasn't new for Galileo, it had been used dozens of times on big communications satellites. It was considered pretty low-risk, it had worked pretty much every time it had been used.

Galileo's antenna failed, more than likely, because its deployment mechanism was lubricated, the antenna stowed, and then the whole thing was unexpectedly put in storage for something like six years. The antenna was never unstowed and "exercised" after storage prior to flight; the lubricants apparently dried out and the deployment mechanism stuck irretrievably.

There's normally nothing wrong with using backup flight hardware on later vehicles. You just have to make certain it still works...

-the other Doug

Posted on request of James Oberg:



Additional info received from James Oberg:



Regards,


Geert

Here's my translation. I tried to keep all ambiguity of the original, so please don't blame me

Earth bacteria to be sent to Mars satellite

Russia prepares a unique space expedition. An interplanetary spacecraft is going to a Mars' satellite in October this year, said the head of the Russian Space agency Anatoly Perminov. Nobody has ever got to Phobos. Two attempts by the Soviet spacecraft failed. And now Russia decides to conquer Phobos, surprising the Universe.

Lavochkin design bureau, where the Russian Moon program was born, it now finishing assembly of the new interplanetary spacecraft. It weighs almost 10 tonnes.

The worst days of total lack of money are hopefully over. Russian researchers are getting ready to encounter "Fear" and "Dread", that is the Mars satellites, Phobos and Deimos. The Russian spacecraft will fly by Deimos to land on Phobos. No projects of that scale have existed since the Soviet days.

The satellite of Mars looks like a giant potato, 20-30 kilometers in size. The hardest part is to find a place for landing on its crater covered surface.

Unlike the big planets, the asteroid (sic) lacks gravity (sic), so the spacecraft can simply bounce off its surface. "We need to press it during the landing, or it will bound around," says Leo Zeleny, head of the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences.

After the successful landing, 11 months after the launch, the spacecraft starts collecting the ground samples. For the first time in history, scientists will have an opportunity to study composition of such a large asteroid. The ground sample will move to the return capsule and will go back to Earth. The main station will continue researching Phobos. It will air TV pictures of the small planet's (sic) surface. The bacteria sent to live on the asteroid will return to Earth with the ground sample.

"We'll see how that bacterial culture will survive the three year long spaceflight, thus testing the theory of panspermia, that is spead of life through space," Leo Zeleny said.

The launch of "Phobos-Grunt" by the Zenit rocket is planned for October this year. That's when the launch window opens for getting to Mars faster.

The developers of the project are in a hurry, as the next window will only open two years later. "We are following the schedule. The schedule is tight. We are working in two shifts now," said Georgy Polischuk, the general constructor and the general director of the Lavochkin design bureau.

The main part of the spacecraft is the engine block "Flagman", the newest Russian development, which will form the foundation for our further space expeditions. "After Phobos, there will be two more Mars spacecraft based on the same hardware, with landing and a rover. And three missions to the Moon. And to Venus in year 2015," Georgy Polischuk said.

The money for the planetary exploration has been provided. The Mars rovers were built earlier. They have been collecting dust while waiting for the better days. The constructors are even sure that the global economic crisis won't disrupt the space plans.

A interesting article indeed. I think that the Universe is most surprised by the fact, that there are Russian Mars rovers collecting dust and waiting for better days. Actual flight hardware? It's hard for me to believe that. Maybe they are talking about prototypes?

I don't find it too hard to believe that the Soviets designed rovers for Mars and even got as far as building flight hardware. When the old Soviet Union broke up and then Mars 96 failed on launch everything was just shelved with no money for the existing programs. What is hard to believe is that they might be thinking of going to the expense of launching a rover that's been in storage for 10 years or so and probably less capable than Sojourner. Lets all not forget that with all their attempts the Soviets have never had a Mars lander thats really worked.

Probably some of us read the story of a Russian Biological experiment on ISS, well now it looks like that those bloodworms could be carried on Phobos Grunt as stated by Oleg Gusev


http://www.nias.affrc.go.jp/anhydrobiosis/...d/e-taisei.html

Well I guess they'll have to consider the probability of contaminating Mars' moon by introducing terrestrial biology to Phobos
As it's a sample return mission, they'll have to keep the sample and the bloodworm containers well separated

http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/...&start=1095

According to Novosti Kosmonavtiki work on the Chinese subsatellite has been completed...

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/apr09/8527

Russia to delay Martian Moon mission to 2011. I hope this is not true

I am not sad about this. Given the rocket switch and all the complexity of this mission, the "launch on time, ready or not!" attitude seemed dangerously reminiscent of the Mars 4-7 and Phobos 1-2 missions. Also, this should allow a Metnet precursor mission to ride along.

Yes, but if they don't launch this year, they may never launch. People are waiting to see the next giant leap, the new projects that will inspire people working in the space industry. The public is getting bored because of all these delays.

Right, but better to let them get a little bored than to have a catastrophic failure. Besides, there is no comparable mission in development that would upstage it between then and now.

Fully agree, too many missions have been lost in the past due to time-pressure with Mars96 as the ultimate example, the whole Phobos-Grunt situation was too me starting to smell like a repeat of Mars96. Better delay 2 years and take the time.

It is a pity these things tend to get more and more crowded with experiments and more and more ambitious. Just a 'repeat' of the original Phobos mission with a close approach and/or 'landing' on Phobos would already have been a big jump ahead.

I still believe in the original metnet idea, that would be a mission which is 'in reach' without too much futuristic hardware and too big a budget and which could deliver a lot of information and better understanding of Mars. It is a bit of a pity that now everybody seems to like to start building big sexy rovers and forget about those simple small metnet landers...

Don't worry, MetNet will be back, maybe sooner than later.

I think the public gets bored shortly after a mission starts, we can see the value of the long term results and the importance of each new mission. A failed mission from having to rush and make a deadline is so damaging and the need to assure success requires a two year delay if needed.

I'd much rather have a 2011-launched success than a 2009-launched failure; still, I was rather hoping that a successful sample return from Phobos might kick up plans for more ambitious Mars missions from the US and maybe Europe.

Nice pic of a mockup.

Phil

Click to view attachment

This article is not too positive:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0904/25russia/

So there's still no official statement of the delay?

How reliable is it: is it just rumors at this point, or should we believe it? It seems from the article that it's just one person's speculation (admittedly someone who should know, but politics could be involved...)

Russia refutes rumors that Phobos-Grunt will be delayed

http://www.roscosmos.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=6142
Roscosmos just announced that the information about delaying the mission Phobos-Grunt to 2011 is false. Everything is on track for launch this year.

Using English version, I still didn't find the above announcement.

same statement on Lavochkin's site (in Russian)

You know, foreign space agencies rarely publish information in English.

Not even in England?

"What has appeared in a number of electronic media outlets, referencing anonymous sources, are reports concerning a delay of thel aunch date for the Phobos-Grunt automatic station. The press service of NPO Lavochkin reports that this information about the Phobos-Grunt automatic station is inaccurate.

The construction of this spacecraft is one of the highest priority tasks. The schedule has been stressed, but work on the complex Phobos-Grunt station is completely on schedule for the 2009 launch window. We consider reports of the need for a delay in electronic publications to not be fully accurate."

From their lips to God's ears. We all want PG to happen!

Oh, thank goodness.

Let's hope this is honest, and not just one of those 'pretend everything is fine till the last moment' things.

A launch date can be honest and still not be met. Take MSL for example.

A friend of mine informed me that all threads about Phobos-Grunt were deleted from the famous Russian forum Novosti Kosmonavtiki. There's no explaination given about why this happened.

But on the main page of the website:

http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/news.shtml

... we read once again: "We don't fear that Phobos-Grut will be delayed to 2011". That's weird!

http://www.planetary.org/blog

Guest blogger Alan Stern has listed the Phobos-Grunt launch as being in August 2011. Just an assumption?

A good summary from Alan, but (off topic for this thread, alas) Vesta is not twice the size of Enceladus! Tsk, Alan!

As for Phobos-Grunt, too bad about this year if the delay is real, but it has to be done right. At least it will give me more time to make ny new Phobos mosaic.

Phil

From the ESA ESLAB conference last week, the official word was still a launch this year.

Might that be a reference to mass?

I suppose that is possible, Ted. If so, my apologies!

Phil

Here we go. Enceladus is 1.1× 10^20 kg^4, Vesta is 2.7 × 10^20 kg^4

It isn't exact, but it is close enough that this may be what he was referring to.

Novosti Kosmonavtiki announced that the Chinese subsatellite will arrive in Russia in June 17th. Work on the project continues according to plan and launch remains scheduled for October this year.

www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/China_to..._probe_999.html

I am still confused whether or not that Yinghuo-1 will be launched alone to Mars or with Phobos-Grunt? So far, I have not found any strong confirmation about the launch date of Phobos-Grunt between 2009 and 2011.

However, if the information from Yinghuo-1 is very certain, that means that Phobos-Grunt will also be traveling along with Yinghuo-1

Can someone able to clarify this case?

Sorry for my bad English, so only this Link:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-05/...nt_11449708.htm

Lauch for Phobos-Grunt and Yinghuo-1 is scheduled for autumn 2009.

Yinghuo-1 will launch with Phobos-Grunt and ride to Mars with it, but they will seperate just before arrival and enter orbit on their own.

http://www.roscosmos.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=6536

Bacterias from Earth will travel aboard the Russian interplanetary space probe "Phobos-Grunt" to Mars and back to Earth. Scientists hope to answer the question whether life cold arrive on Earth from space and survive (looks like it's all about panspermia).

"Phobos-Grunt" will deliver samples from the Martian moon Phobos. It's scheduled to launch in October 2009.

You can read more about the bacteria-experiment here :

http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/life/

Looks like there has been another update at russianspaceweb

No one seems to have commented on this, but the Fobos Grunt model shown at Lavochkin's stand in le Bourget this year was quite different from that shown two years ago. And although a modified ascent stage was there, I don't understand where is the sample return capsule now.
My picture:

A nice article about Yinghuo from China's People's Daily
I am wondering when we will see an image of actual Chinese hardware...