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RNeuhaus
QUOTE (Oersted @ Feb 6 2006, 07:05 PM)
I seem to have read somewhere that just a proper-facing slope on HP isn't enough, because Spirit will also need to climb up from the valley, to get sunlight for long enough each day. So it is not just the angle but also the duration that precludes overwintering at HP. Could somebody confirm that, or do I remember wrong?
*

Yes, the proper title sun angle is very important in Mars. You can test it by using a magnifiying glass using the sun light. If you focus it to make an oval light, you feel somewhat warm but if you adjust it to make a perfect circle, you will feel your hand to be hotter. That is a good example about how the MER solar panel absorbs the sun energy. We learned it from the last winter from both rovers: Oppy and Spirit. Spirit was almost to be dead because of bad sun tilt position close to Lookharry valley (not sure it).

The higher is the climb is better: longer sun time due to the shadow from Columbia Hill and also stronger wind to clean the solar panels.

Rodolfo
CosmicRocker
QUOTE (Myran @ Feb 6 2006, 03:11 PM)
...  I got the hunch that the we'll see a press conference in the near future.
*

Myran: Wouldn't that be terrific...an actual MER press conference? I'd settle for even a lesser press briefing. cool.gif

I suppose if this turns out to be a really major or surprising discovery, they just might have one.
Tesheiner
QUOTE (Shaka @ Feb 6 2006, 08:29 PM)
You have eyes like a Brazilian eagle, Tesch!
*


LOL!
If eagles have eyes like mine, they are frankly going to extinguish. I have a bit of hyperopia and astigmatism added to quite poor 3d vision.

biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Shaka @ Feb 6 2006, 08:29 PM)
Now can you mark on those photos where the northwest corner of HP is and also does anyone know which section of the edge is Gibson ?  I assume we are somewhat to the east  of the NW corner and have no view yet of the west side. unsure.gif ?
*


Imho, Spirit is almost AT the NW corner. Maybe a meter or two to any side.
Bill Harris
QUOTE
If eagles have eyes like mine, they are frankly going to extinguish. I have a bit of hyperopia...

Sir, vision involves more than the physical process of seeing. And your vision is 20/20.


I hope we have enough time to do a proper study at this site. Just think if Spirit had gone _here_ initially two years ago as was initially planned.

--Bill
Tesheiner
QUOTE (Pando @ Feb 3 2006, 09:16 PM)
QUOTE (Burmese @ Feb 2 2006, 12:01 PM)

What is Spirit's total odometry now?  A few weeks ago she was still a bit behind Oppy.

QUOTE (SigurRosFan @ Feb 2 2006, 12:08 PM)
Between 6,300 and 6,400 meters?
Edit: About 6,400 meters are more accurate.


6430 meters.
*



That's the info on the current status report.

QUOTE
As of sol 741 (Feb. 2, 2006), Spirit's total odometry was 6,430 meters (exactly 4 miles).
Opportunity's total odometry as of sol 721 is 6,505 meters (4.04 miles).


If we add the net movement (estimations) on sols 742, 743, and 744 -- 50m, 40m, and 23m respectively -- Spirit's odometry goes up to 6543m, surpassing Opportunity's odometry sometime during sol 743.
Tesheiner
BTW, speaking of wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif , today (sol 746) is driving sol.
Sunspot
The last 9-10 months haven't been kind to Opportunity. I often wonder where the rover would be now if it hadn't got stuck in Purgatory dune and had the IDD problems. Maybe even approaching Victoria Crater?
SigurRosFan
Tesheiner, Sol 745 was not a driving day?
Tesheiner
Afaik no.
There was a navcam 180º panorama and some pancam activity but it seems to have been a sort of "day-off". Spirit is still at site AO00.
djellison
Yeah - with not HUGE power, and so many consecutive driving sols, I think Spirit needed a day off to recharge and empty a bit more flash ready for what I guess will be an IDD campaign on this slope, plus perhaps another Pancam Pan.

Doug
SigurRosFan
And i'm waiting for new Front HazCam imagery ...
djellison
it's only 1504 for Spirit, don't expect any new imagery from Tosol for about 2 hrs.
MahFL
We sure have smile.gif
elakdawalla
QUOTE (Sunspot @ Feb 7 2006, 10:41 AM)


Holy cow! blink.gif ohmy.gif is right! Go Spirit!!
djellison
That's a stunning approach drive, with the slope, the distance - I'd have called it a aprt 2 - but they're birded that - they can go straight into an IDD sequence - fantastic!

Doug
Sunspot
It has a very strange appearence ....... some parts of the rock look like they are a little more resistant to erosion.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/na...55P0685L0M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/na...55P0685L0M1.JPG
Myran
Several times on this forum its been mentioned the need for a drill core to piece together the geological history of the places we've seen on Mars, and here we have something that are
almost as good.

Too bad the rat is shot, but theres so much to do here, this place screams for a thorough investigation.
Ames
Not Festoons but cross bedding!

Nice!
RNeuhaus
QUOTE (Sunspot @ Feb 7 2006, 01:41 PM)

I know that Spirit's rover drivers are good and they are like to approach and crawl rocks. Nice many laminations of rocks, up to 2 meters. So many, many despositions of ash, water, or something else over millions of years. I seem that it is not like a volcanic rock. blink.gif

Rodolfo
RNeuhaus
QUOTE (Ames @ Feb 7 2006, 03:14 PM)
Not Festoons but cross bedding!

Nice!
*

I would love to learn about what is the difference between festoon and cross bedding? They looks alike?

Rodolfo
Ames
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Feb 7 2006, 09:39 PM)
I would love to learn about what is the difference between festoon and cross bedding? They looks alike?

Rodolfo
*


From my limited O' level geology, It's a matter of scale.
Festoons are from little ripples, cross bedding is from dunes.
Festoons look like eye shapes, cross bedding is where whole sets of bedding planes are cut off by similar sets of bedding planes at a different angle like curtain(drapes) swags.

I am looking to the rock men to put me right and maybe explain the significance...


Nick
tty
To me it looks a lot like wind-eroded dune sandstone. You could almost believe You're somewhere in Navajo sandstone country down Moab way.

tty
algorimancer
If that's the horizon off in the distance, Spirit's sitting on an at least 26 degree slope.

Click to view attachment
dvandorn
QUOTE (Ames @ Feb 7 2006, 02:14 PM)
Not Festoons but cross bedding!

Nice!
*

Yep, noticed that right off.

Looks at first glace like the pond / artesian spring origin theory for HP is not, at this point, ruled out...

-the other Doug
tdemko
QUOTE (Ames @ Feb 7 2006, 03:53 PM)
From my limited O' level geology, It's a matter of scale.
Festoons are from little ripples, cross bedding is from dunes.
Festoons look like eye shapes, cross bedding is where whole sets of bedding planes are cut off by similar sets of bedding planes at a different angle like curtain(drapes) swags.

I am looking to the rock men to put me right and maybe explain the significance...
Nick
*


I've been holding off on giving this little sedimentology lecture, but now seems like the appropriate time:

I tend to only use the term "festoon" for very large scale trough cross bedding, like you might find in eolian sanstones, where the cross bedding has recorded the migration of the foresets (the down-current face of a bedform) of very large dunes (m's to 10's m high). Large relief dune foresets can also form in subaqueous settings, like subtidal sandwaves or bars in deep river channels. I think the NASA/JPL guys use the term more generically for trough cross bedding and lamination.

The smaller-scale features that the rovers have been identifying would fit into what I would call "cross lamination". They have identified: 1) trough cross lamination, where the lamina foresets are curved and intersect the lower lamina set boundary at a low angle and may be truncated at a high angle at the upper lamina set boundary; 2) planar tabular cross lamination, where the foreset lamina are inclined, but parallel, and intersect the upper and lower lamina set boundaries at approximately the same angle; and 3) low angle inclined cross lamination, which is just what it sounds like. There is also plenty of horizontal planar lamination.

The difference between these lamination types has to do with the morphology of the bedform which migrated to form the strata type. When straight-crested subaqueous current ripples migrate, they produce planar tabular cross lamination. When sinuous-crested subaqueous current ripples migrate, they form trough cross lamination. Low-angle inclined cross lamination can form by migration or encroachment of a low-relief sand sheet, or a traction carpet, in either subaqueous or eolian settings. Horizontal planar lamination can form in a number of very different settings: 1) upper flow regime (fast current velocity and/or low water depth) plane beds, which can form in fluvial, tidal, and sediment gravity flow settings; 2) antidune migration, where the entire bed is in transport (the planar lamination forms down current from the up-current migrating antidune); and 3) settling out from suspension. Horizontal and low-angle inclined lamination can also form by the migration of wind ripples (also called ballistic ripples) in an eolian setting. This is sometimes called "wind ripple translatent strata". These features have distinctive alternations of coarse and fine fractions between lamina, which often results in a "pinstripe" appearance in outcrop, and they are then called pinstripe lamina.

Any oscillatory flow (influence of waves) either alone or combined with unidirectional flow, tends to make bedforms that leave trough cross lamination as they migrate (sometimes just vertically aggrading). This "wave-ripple cross lamination" exhibits curved foreset lamination, but they tend to have no preferential dip direction between lamina sets.

The other important criteria for describing cross bedding and lamination is the angle of climb... that will be Lecture #2!

Dave Rubin's site has many excellent examples of cross bedding and cross lamination and other resources:

http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/seds/
CosmicRocker
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Feb 7 2006, 02:39 PM)
I would love to learn about what is the difference between festoon and cross bedding? They looks alike?
*

Rodolfo: Cross-bedding comes in many different varieties which can tell us a lot about the original depositional environment that formed them. What we see here are more correctly called cross-laminations because they are so thin. Festoon cross-lamination is one type created by the migration of sand ripples under water. Other types can be formed by eolian dunes and ripples, river currents, waves, tides, and other things.

A while back Bill posted a link to an excellent site with many examples of sedimentary structures, but I have lost that link. Maybe he'll be kind enough to post it again. In the meantime, there are some pretty nice images and descriptions of several types at this site. Click on "Current bedforms" and "Waves and tides" in the frame on the left. You might also Google to find other sites.
http://www.ualberta.ca/~jwaldron/structurespage.html

I think we may be seeing more than one type of cross-lamination here. Besides the abundant tabular stuff we have been seeing from the last two sols, there may be some that look like some kind of ripple cross-lamination, but the image contrast in the areas I am seeing it is very poor and I am not convinced yet.

When are sol 747 images expected? I'm dying for some closeups here.

Edited to add: Oops, I didn't notice that Tim was posting a more detailed explanation at the same time.
Bill Harris
QUOTE
I've been holding off on giving this little sedimentology lecture...

Standing ovation on the lecture. And Dave Rubin's site is wonderful. Thanks!

Tom:
Leaverites--

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PETROLGY/Leaverite-SedFeat.HTM

--Bill
Shaka
QUOTE (tdemko @ Feb 8 2006, 08:44 AM)
*

blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif
blink.gif
Sir, We brought you this.Click to view attachment
Zeke4ther
QUOTE (tdemko @ Feb 8 2006, 02:44 PM)
I've been holding off on giving this little sedimentology lecture...


Tim
Very interesting indeed! Thank-you.
ElkGroveDan
QUOTE (tdemko @ Feb 8 2006, 06:44 PM)
I've been holding off on giving this little sedimentology lecture, but now seems like the appropriate time:

I tend to only use the term "festoon" for very large scale trough cross bedding, like you might find in eolian sanstones, where the cross bedding has recorded the migration of the foresets (the down-current face of a bedform) of very large dunes (m's to 10's m high). Large relief dune foresets can also form in subaqueous settings, like subtidal sandwaves or bars in deep river channels. I think the NASA/JPL guys use the term more generically for trough cross bedding and lamination.

The smaller-scale features that the rovers have been identifying would fit into what I would call "cross lamination". They have identified: 1) trough cross lamination, where the lamina foresets are curved and intersect the lower lamina set boundary at a low angle and may be truncated at a high angle at the upper lamina set boundary; 2) planar tabular cross lamination, where the foreset lamina are inclined, but parallel, and intersect the upper and lower lamina set boundaries at approximately the same angle; and 3) low angle inclined cross lamination, which is just what it sounds like. There is also plenty of horizontal planar lamination.

The difference between these lamination types has to do with the morphology of the bedform which migrated to form the strata type. When straight-crested subaqueous current ripples migrate, they produce planar tabular cross lamination. When sinuous-crested subaqueous current ripples migrate, they form trough cross lamination. Low-angle inclined cross lamination can form by migration or encroachment of a low-relief sand sheet, or a traction carpet, in either subaqueous or eolian settings. Horizontal planar lamination can form in a number of very different settings: 1) upper flow regime (fast current velocity and/or low water depth) plane beds, which can form in fluvial, tidal, and sediment gravity flow settings; 2) antidune migration, where the entire bed is in transport (the planar lamination forms down current from the up-current migrating antidune); and 3) settling out from suspension. Horizontal and low-angle inclined lamination can also form by the migration of wind ripples (also called ballistic ripples) in an eolian setting. This is sometimes called "wind ripple translatent strata". These features have distinctive alternations of coarse and fine fractions between lamina, which often results in a "pinstripe" appearance in outcrop, and they are then called pinstripe lamina.

Any oscillatory flow (influence of waves) either alone or combined with unidirectional flow, tends to make bedforms that leave trough cross lamination as they migrate (sometimes just vertically aggrading). This "wave-ripple cross lamination" exhibits curved foreset lamination, but they tend to have no preferential dip direction between lamina sets.

http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/seds/
*
I was going to say that.
RNeuhaus
QUOTE (tdemko @ Feb 8 2006, 01:44 PM)
The other important criteria for describing cross bedding and lamination is the angle of climb... that will be Lecture #2!

Dave Rubin's site has many excellent examples of cross bedding and cross lamination and other resources:

http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/seds/
*

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Feb 8 2006, 01:59 PM)
Maybe he'll be kind enough to post it again. In the meantime, there are some pretty nice images and descriptions of several types at this site. Click on "Current bedforms" and "Waves and tides" in the frame on the left. You might also Google to find other sites.
http://www.ualberta.ca/~jwaldron/structurespage.html

Both references have helped me much to understand the bedorms and crossbedding. These references are a very useful geology sources since they will permit me, I have to practice it by observing during my hobby Truck 4x4 off road outdoor, to understand the formation of many places that I was not able to understand fully.

Again thanks to both!!!

Rodolfo
CosmicRocker
It's getting a bit hard to follow everything in the discussion here, and the mostly parallel one in "Home Sweet Home." Shouldn't we move this over there, since we are no longer "Going to Home Plate," but are actually there?

QUOTE (tdemko @ Feb 8 2006, 12:44 PM)
I've been holding off on giving this little sedimentology lecture, but now seems like the appropriate time:
...
*

That was quite informative. Thanks. It really pointed out just how complex the interpretation of crossbedding can be, be it aqueous or aeolian. Those movies that morphed into images of the outcrops were awesome. I think we'd all like to hear a few speculations from you about these HP rocks.

QUOTE (Myran @ Feb 7 2006, 01:11 PM)
Several times on this forum its been mentioned the need for a drill core to piece together the geological history of the places we've seen on Mars, and here we have something that are
almost as good.
...
*

I'm all for drilling in a future mission. I'd like to ask Schlumberger to develop a borehole logging tool that could be included on a rover. Imagine running resistivity, SP, gamma ray, neutron porosity, and a dipmeter down a hole on Mars! It might be difficult to fill the hole with mud, though.

QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Feb 8 2006, 12:59 PM)
... I think we may be seeing more than one type of cross-lamination here.  Besides the abundant tabular stuff we have been seeing from the last two sols, there may be some that look like some kind of ripple cross-lamination, but the image contrast in the areas I am seeing it is very poor and I am not convinced yet.
*

I think I'll pull back on that for now, after looking more carefully at the images. I think I'm being misled by the nifty differential erosion we are seeing on these amazing rocks. I really want to see pancam closeups and MIs of the upper units. No, cancel that. I want to see more MI's of this lower section, first. Wait a minute, I'm not sure...

Is anyone having fun?

Edited to correct grammar.
Shaka
QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Feb 8 2006, 08:20 PM)
Is anyone having fun?

Edited to correct grammar.
*

HOOO...RAAHHH! (Insert emoticon for wild delirium)

P.S. "correct Grammar" ? What's wrong, she's all right isn't she? Let the Old Dear have her little say! smile.gif
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