There's about a 100-1 'lurk' ratio at a best guess - i.e. for each regularly contributing member there's about 100 unique visitors per month.

I have spoken to people who would be classified as knowledgeable people who like the place, visit regularly, but don't contribute because they don't have the time or are worried about saying things that they shouldn't etc. BUT - they still enjoy the place and will occasionally send an email or put something on a website somewhere so we can keep ourselves informed..informally.

There is a cut off made in terms of subject matter and quality. If that cut off retains more high quality activity than it eliminates - then it's doing the right thing.

At the end of the day - this isn't the only place in the world to talk about this stuff - there are others - and if people are not happy with the 'slice' made on the types of discussion or people involved here, they can always contribute to other forums (I visit the BAUT forums a lot for instance - for stuff that wouldn't quite fit here )

I've had some fairly nasty emails and get called some fairly nasty things on other forums because of it - but it's a price worth paying for the positive feedback that outweighs it significantly.

Doug

That's fine - but I wont be clearing it up if it gets personal ( as I had to last time ). Of course the 29 pages looked civilized. Any thread would after moderator activity. (Sorry to be negative about this - but to say a thread looks fine is to utterly miss the crux of forum management)

Then--just a suggestion--perhaps in some ways it might be better not to clear such things up to the point of sanitizing them from the public record altogether since that may well give misleading impressions to those who missed the verbal fisticuffs last time. To paraphrase an old adage, forums which wipe away the past will probably find themselves condemned to repeat that past at some point in the future!

If the rest of us are meant to learn from the mistakes of others it might be better at least sometimes to leave a little of the blood lying around for others to notice rather than washing it away with aid of moderator soap and water. Something like "This post deleted for <fill in with the reason>" maybe.

Encouraging the impression that all is sweetness and harmony is all very well, I'm sure, but it may also encourage the impression that the moderators are asleep at the switch and that it is thus safe to come out and "get personal".

Just my 2 cents worth.

======
Stephen

Or how about people listen to the mods and think before posting and then we don't have to do any cleaning up at all?

Only if you spent you entire time here with your eyes closed would you think that the sorts of posts that were culled were ever going to be acceptable. I don't intend to leave further reminders for people. There is a big fat reminder in the form of the Forum Guidelines : specifically

2. Acceptable Behaviour
- 2.1 Every post must remain respectful of the opinion of others, even if contrary to your own.
- 2.2 Posts should make a contribution. Think - does what I am about to post add anything to the discussion. If the answer is no - should you really be posting it?
- 2.3 Before asking a question or starting a thread for which there might be something similar already in existence, have a brief look for a similar thread, or use the forum search tool to search for it first.
- 2.4 Don't rant. If you have a point to make...make it and move on. Do not litter your every post making the same point again and again. If you want somewhere to vent - get yourself a blog.
- 2.5 Arguments. If an argument between two people begins, take it to email or private message - we don't want to see your fights in the forum.

If people wish to ignore those rules, they'll find their posts deleted without warning and continued behaviour in breach of those rules will result in accounts getting deleted. It's how it's been for 3.5 years - it's how it'll continue to be. If you can't figure out how to stick to those rules without a trail of rule-breaking crumbs - then you shouldn't be posting at all.



To paraphrase me - members who ignore the rules will probably find themselves banned. There are no lessons that need learning - no posts to be made an example. There are a set of rules - they've been in place nearly a year - most people follow them. Those that are unable or refuse to do so will have posts deleted and , if they do so continually, their accounts closed.

I'm not going to waste my time, nor am I going to ask the admin/mod team to waste theirs by leaving a trail of who-did-what-and-what-we-did-about-it every time a post needs culling. We ALL have better things to do.

Doug

Fair enough, Doug. I probably did forget about, or perhaps not even notice, posts removed by the moderators.

CR + Stephen,
If you really want the full ding-battedness, you can sign up for immediate email notification of all posts. Those notifications are sent out as soon as the post is made, before the moderators get ahold of them. It's probably not worth it, btw. Which reminds me, time to send in donation to UMSF!

I'm not familiar with the dispute from the old thread, but I would like to take this moment to thank the Admonistrators for their tenacious D

I try really hard to avoid posting, but I look at UMSF every day, admiring from afar!

Cheers,


Bradford Ellis

Speaking of contributions, I'm surprised there's not a convenient link somewhere on the page for contributions. Or is money not really much of an issue for UMSF?

--Greg

It's actually not an issue. I don't pimp the idea of donations etc - but those who do want to contribute, can. We get enough from the tidy text ads at the bottom of each page to pay for the hosting - and combined with the odd donation it leaves enough to do things like the 2000 Sols posters or treat Steve to dinner and beers at Wagammama's in Milton Keynes.

Doug

You took him to Milton Keynes? Will he still associate with us?

Ted

He was already there We got utterly, entirely, totally lost on the way back from food to his hotel though.

Doug

Ah. A literal pub crawl, then?

Fog - a Ford Focus - and 28,000,000 roundabouts.

Doug

I can dig it; New Jersey is much the same way!

I've been told this is an apt description of Milton Keynes:

http://www.thisischurch.com/intercession/i...y29year2004.htm

"We now join together in saying the prayer which Jesus taught his disciples, saying together:-...."

Oh God, why did I go to Milton Keynes.

Doug

Well then you were told wrong.

James (from Milton Keynes and proud of it)

I haven't been to Milton Keynes myself but first heard of it in an (extremely funny) book by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett: "Good Omens".
In this book the resident angel and devil in the United Kingdom both take a considerable interest in building activities (the circum-London motorway for example being one of the devil Crowley's most successful creations).

As for Milton Keynes neither was actually responsible "but both reported it as a success".

...nice line, TTY!

Don't feel bad, James; my home town is much maligned as well. (It's called "Butte", so you can easily guess which end of the jokes it gets for starters... )

Everyone I know has been to Butte -- once.

See what I'm saying?!??

When I was in junior high, I recall a family trip to Seattle, and we did go thru Butte on the way there.

I also recall returning to the midwest via Oregon and Utah . . .

Now that hurt, Tasp; surely the logical exit point from the western US was Butte!

(Sorry, Doug, but we sure are trashing the title of this thread... )

As a brand new board member, just accepted last night, I wanted to let Doug know that his forum rules were one of the reasons I was pleased to join up. I don't know how much knowledge I have to contribute that will seem new and fresh—and it may be I'll end up lurking to soak up information and learn new things—but just knowing that this place won't be cluttered with electric universe gobbledygook or torrid political rambling makes me happier than I can easily express.

This is going to be awesome.

And I would feel remiss not to shout out to Veronica for suggesting it in the first place.

Here´s why we need moderators, quoted from kottke.org:

---------------

Does the broken windows theory hold online?
The Economist reports (http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12630201)that experimental tests of the controversial "broken windows theory" of social behavior indicate that the theory is correct.

The most dramatic result, though, was the one that showed a doubling in the number of people who were prepared to steal in a condition of disorder. In this case an envelope with a EUR5 ($6) note inside (and the note clearly visible through the address window) was left sticking out of a post box. In a condition of order, 13% of those passing took the envelope (instead of leaving it or pushing it into the box). But if the post box was covered in graffiti, 27% did. Even if the post box had no graffiti on it, but the area around it was littered with paper, orange peel, cigarette butts and empty cans, 25% still took the envelope.

Here's the 1982 Atlantic article (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198203/broken-windows) in which the theory was first discussed in a popular forum. (Great article, BTW.)

At the community level, disorder and crime are usually inextricably linked, in a kind of developmental sequence. Social psychologists and police officers tend to agree that if a window in a building is broken and is left unrepaired, all the rest of the windows will soon be broken. This is as true in nice neighborhoods as in rundown ones. Window-breaking does not necessarily occur on a large scale because some areas are inhabited by determined window-breakers whereas others are populated by window-lovers; rather, one unrepaired broken window is a signal that no one cares, and so breaking more windows costs nothing.

Reading these articles, I wondered: how does the broken windows theory apply to online spaces? Perhaps like so:

Much of the tone of discourse online is governed by the level of moderation and to what extent people are encouraged to "own" their words. When forums, message boards, and blog comment threads with more than a handful of participants are unmoderated, bad behavior follows. The appearance of one troll encourages others. Undeleted hateful or ad hominem comments are an indication that that sort of thing is allowable behavior and encourages more of the same. Those commenters who are normally respectable participants are emboldened by the uptick in bad behavior and misbehave themselves. More likely, they're discouraged from helping with the community moderation process of keeping their peers in line with social pressure. Or they stop visiting the site altogether.

Unchecked comment spam signals that the owner/moderator of the forum or blog isn't paying attention, stimulating further improper conduct. Anonymity provides commenters with immunity from being associated with their speech and actions, making the whole situation worse...how does the community punish or police someone they don't know? Very quickly, the situation is out of control and your message board is the online equivalent of South Central Los Angeles in the 1980s, inhabited by roving gangs armed with hate speech, fueled by the need for attention, making things difficult for those who wish to carry on useful conversations.

But what about a site's physical appearance? Does the aesthetic appearance of a blog affect what's written by the site's commenters? My sense is that the establishment of social norms through moderation, both by site owners and by the community itself, has much more of an impact on the behavior of commenters than the visual design of a site but aesthetics does factor in somewhat. Perhaps the poor application of a default MT or Wordpress template signals a lack of care or attention on the part of the blog's owner, leading readers to think they can get away with something. Poorly designed advertising or too many ads littered about a site could result in readers feeling disrespected and less likely to participate civilly or respond to moderation. Messageboard software is routinely ugly; does that contribute to the often uncivil tone found on web forums?

------------

We're about a nanometer from a default invision board skin here - but I think it has the right sort of tone

Moderation is not easy - you try to draw lines, but it's not a black and white situation - it may seem arbitrary to some, but here, at least, it works in the long term. Set the tone and the guidelines firmly, at all times, and it can work. BAUT manages to tread a very interesting line between what UMSF is like, and the Mars Rover Blog. I've spent 10 years in and around forums, and you can tell the troublemakers a long long way off usually. It's not especially pleasant watching a ticking time-bomb posting on a board, when you know you'll be hitting the ban button before too long, there's an inevitability about it, especially when they try to argue with the moderation team - that's always a terminal sign.

It's a fascinating ecosystem all of its own.

I sometimes think it's a bit like a school... you've got the really cool kids who are the centre of attention and always sit on the best bench in the yard or best chairs in the 6th form wing, sharing in-jokes; the cool-ish kids who hang around the really cool kids, chipping in now and again when they feel confident enough to; the not-cool-but-interested kids who watch from a distance, happy just to be involved and witnesses to the cool stuff; the not-cool-and-resentful kids who lurk in a corner of the playground glaring at everyone else, hating them for being so popular but too timid to do anything disruptive; the annoying clown kids who run in and out of the other groups generally being pains in the **** but sure in their own minds they are hilarious, and the wrecking kids, who share no real interests with any of the others and just come into the yard or the 6th form wing now and again to try and cause trouble, just for the sake of it, then strut away laughing...

(raises a single eyebrow) Fascinating....

Stu...I don't feel like I fit in any of your groups...should I ask for being transferred?...

That's an interesting way to think about it. One could maybe try to identify oneself with a particular niche. Let's see . . what type of organism do I feel like here? A coarse-feeding fish perhaps?

Fascinating concept, the broken window theory, and one that fits very nicely into what I've always called the "Will to be stupid" theory.

People in general (with the exceptions that prove the rule, of course) tend to do what they feel they can get away with... and driving that function is what I call the will to be stupid. It's the powerful desire to act on impulses that you can easily determine to be negative, disruptive or just plain not in anyone's best interests. The disruptive/self-indulgent/just-plain-stupid act almost always brings with it some very transient gratification, but is characterized by immediate remorse and realization that, even if you can get away with it, it's still a wrong (or at least completely non-useful) thing to do.

However, even when you realize you did something stupid, the immediate response when challenged on the action is usually either "You'd have done it, too" or "Everyone was doing it." It's the anonymity of the mob that drives the self-justification; after all, most people would never do, as individuals, what mobs are known to do.

So yes, policing is always necessary. The great pitfall in the policing function is when a megalomaniac gets into a position of power over the policing function, and attempts to limit all discourse to that which supoprts his/her own opinions. That becomes an oppressive environment which may maintain order, but at the expense of the free flow of ideas.

I do feel that Doug has come across the primary means of avoiding that pitfall, though -- appointing a team of moderators that can self-check itself against any one person imposing such an oppressive limit on discourse. And Doug has selected as his mods people who weren't necessarily desirous of being the "board cops," but instead those people he thought would be good at it. That's important, since megalomania is one of the more powerful motivators for seeking authority over others. (In other words, you don't want the police to be composed entirely of people who *want* to do the job, because the desire to impose your will onto others is precisely the trait that ought to disqualify you from achieving such power.)

It's good to remember, though, that the will to be stupid is omnipresent, and just because you wear a badge (or have "Moderator" pinned next to your name) doesn't mean you're immune. I'm pleased to say that, for the most part, the mods here have done a good job of avoiding mob-think amongst themselves and allowing discordant opinions (when presented respectfully, and when in keeping with the mutually-agreed subject matter limitations of the forum) to be expressed.

-the other Doug

This discussion is pretty fascinating to me. Just as you guys are curious about the day to day operations on the rovers, I'm curious about what's behind the UMSF pages I see every day. From the hard/soft-ware down to the "mod"-ware. I'm all ears (hint hint hint).

Paolo

No offense, Stu, but your description of the 'ecosystem' here makes me feel somewhat ill. I wouldn't like to participate in such a system.

See? The mods don't agree.

The ecosystem he describes exists in every human group and organization.
At least at UMSF is it's the science nerds that are the "cool kids"!

Perhaps, but in my opinion such categories are hats that people temporarily wear - not castes that they should be assigned to.

If we took you into the backroom Paolo we'd have to use this on you:

True. Someone can be "cool" in one group and a "hanger on" in another. Most people are members of many different groups and play a different role in each. USSF is just one of those groups.

Or do you think a person should be able to easily change "hats" within one group.... not an easy thing to do.

I think my only important point was that mods don't always agree on everything. Now I think I'd better drop the topic, before I tick off the mods.

You show me yours, I'll show you mine In March

I would love to see you giving a presentation regarding the history of UMSF, behind the scenes stories. Is that a promise?

Paolo

Yup

No offence taken I was just speaking in general internet forum terms, not re UMSF specifically. I visit quite a few forums where the "school yard" behaviour I described is followed very closely, and yes, I find it a bit eeksome too. I thank my lucky stars every day that UMSF is, as I;ve said before, a peaceful "please leave your guns at the door" saloon in the Wild West of the internet.

I'm good with it. I get to be the hood who hangs out in the smoking area all day, waiting till I turn 18 so I can run off & join the Army! (Well...Air Force... )

I had a quite disturbing mental image reading that of you as Danny Zuko, singing "Summer Nights", in an UMSF production of "Grease"...

yikes!

...Well, from the director's cut (by "cut" I mean what Doug might do to my throat after this...)

(F) Summer nights, black as molasses....
(M) Summer nights; take off your sunglass-es...
(F) Summer nights, what's that I see-ee?
(M) It's my tricked-out 20cm S-C-Teee!

(Both) Summer nights, starry & dark
We get weird looks from the folks in the park...

(Crowd) Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa, wa!
Tell me more, tell me more
Can you see Ay-lee-uns?

...argh. That's enough!

Would anyone care to look at the title of this thread again?

Back in the days of the big dust storm last (earth) year it was a time of nail biting stress but also utter boredom. This led to a list of emails with reworked lyrics of famous songs. Maybe these propitiatory verses touched the martian eolian gods, maybe not, but it was a way to survive the dust storm here on Earth.

Paolo

The temptation to re-write the lyrics for a certain US pop singers latest creation 'Womanizer' is exceedingly high...

Rover Driver, Rover-Rover Driver
You're a Rover Driver
Oh, Rover Driver, oh
You're a Rover Driver, baby

You, you, you are
You, you, you are
Rover Driver, Rover Driver, Rover Driver,

etc.

Next time you hear it on the radio or whatever, trust me, you'll be singing along now.

I thought the UMSF was the one place on Earth safe from Britney references.....aarrghh...I said her name....aarrrghh!

MERB Sol 833 will be forever be known as Jammerbugt (sp) ripple. They did not like my suggestion to call it the "Spears Ripple" (oops we did it again).

Paolo