Hmm...curious, but probably wise for a mass audience.

That zooming out in the end, leaving MSL all alone, gives me a chill in the stomach...

I believe that the corer no longer is part of the mission

If you feel sorry for the 3/4 ton rover with nucelar power and a frickin laser beam on its mast....what must you feel for the MER's

Doug

Doug...
They're grown up now, our two girls have shown to know how to take care of themselves...

Yes!!! More of them 3/4 ton rovers with nuclear power and frickin laser beams attached to their masts!!! Throw me a bone here, I want high definition video, too!!!

Laser sampling of a martian rock and core drilling by MSL are seen as part of the following Sky at Night extended Mars special. They may be from the same simulation as mentioned above and look pretty cool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacegu.../proginfo.shtml

Sure gives a sense of just how radical the Skycrane concept is.

That's got to be the most "science-fictiony" thing I've ever seen bent into metal.

Upon seeing the MSL rover in simulations I'm always struck by just how scorpion-like the thing looks. That inclined rear RTG really gives it a sting in the tail and the whole thing looks quite menacing, like it'd eat Sojourner for breakfast!

Came across this student project version of MSL's EDL sequence on Youtube (done "a few years ago"): Re: MSL EDL.

======
Stephen

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I love the Firefly style camera work in the JPL animation....

Just find this...
Mars Science Laboratory Mission Animation - May 25, 2007
MSL animations

Thanks, Toma!

Man...LOTS of moving parts on this critter...

I like that Hollywood-style action camera movement in and out of rover...

Just watched the animation (a loooong download on dialup, but worth it! Thanks for the link!) and a whole range of thoughts went thru my mind...

Watching the initial descent: Wow, that's amazing!!

Watching the Skycrane part: *****!!! Are they INSANE?!?!?!?!?! They're really going to DO that?!?!?!?! Hang it beneath a rocket platform like something off Thunderbirds?!?!?! Are they NUTS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Watching the surface operations: oh, can't wait for that...

Watching the rover hang its head and go to sleep at the end of a sol: awwwwwwww........

Watching the rock sample going through the works: if THAT all works it'll be a miracle...

Watching the closing sequence as the dusty rover rolls away: I want that. Now.

The whole suspend and release process really scares me. I remember a probable cause for the Mars Polar Lander's failure was when the landing gear extended the "bump" that created may have been interpreted as touchdown, so the engines cut off while still at altitude. I can see a similar tug or bump possibly happening to MSL while in suspended state (from air turbulence, swinging, or reaching the bottom of the cable reel-out.)

I don't know why the "skycrane" (in basically its same configuration), couldn't just have landing leg extensions (straddling MSL) and actually land (eliminating the MSL hanging in air). Once landed, MSL could just be similarly reeled down a few inches to the surface, cut loose, and then drive away. That way, they still have their immediately rovable rover, without the dangerous in-air suspension.

You are not alone in your assessment of Skycrane. What's really nuts is the future of the Mars Program may depend upon the success of MSL.

I think you would end up with a lot of rocket exhaust and high velocity dust impinging on the rover if you did that. The MPL failure was, so they think, a software fault. A line of code would have fixed it - there's little analogous to MSL with the MPL failure really.

And yes - MSL EDL looks crazy. Not as crazy as MPF and MER though.

Doug

There's a fine line in spacecraft design between aggressive and crazy. MPF and MER were both very aggressive designs. In addition, I would call MER an aggressive but excellent design. Unfortunately, the less said about MSL the better....

I could have covered up the member name of this post and still have guessed that Gary is back

Alex, I never really left. I've been too busy working to do anything other than lurk here.

Have you been involved in the latest Mars Design Reference Mission (DRM)? They tried to suck me into it but the activity is unfunded (that says something). I'd like to be more involved with the DRM but can't justify taking time off from funded work.

I'm not sure about NASA Ames but I believe JPL has a special financial code (like 999999 or something) for recording work time on "funding: uncertain" projects, aka "The Land of No Return."

About three years ago I was doing pre-Phase-A interplanetary work almost full time. Now, almost all of that has dried up. What little pre-Phase-A work that I'm still doing is unfunded, e.g. the occasional Venus and Saturn atmospheric probe. We were hoping that the Mars DRM would bring in more money but that was not the case. From my perspective there is nothing in the pipe line.

The last interesting pre-Phase-A work that I was involved in was the "CEMMENT" study. CEMMENT was essentially a Mars Sample Return mission based upon an Ares-V launch vehicle and aerocapture at Mars. The bottom line for CEMMENT was $10 billion dollars riding on a single launch.

I'm not optimistic about what's going to happen at JPL after MSL reaches its logical conclusion. It's like there's a curtain hanging over the end of 2008 and no one can see past it. I guess it all depends on what the next President has in mind for the Space Program and whether there is any money to achieve it.

Is there any possibility of mounting instrumentation (weather instruments, seismometer, etc.) on the "platform" section of the descent stage without making things too complicated?

Seems reasonable to expect that it could make a fairly soft landing and might make a nice local cross reference to data from the MSL as it wanders around.

(Imagine the PR release as the MSL comes roving into view.)

-Mike

It isn't going to make a "soft" landing. It will have no power nor telemetry or even a spacecraft computer.

Also, MSL will probably avoid the descent stage since it will be leaking hydrazine

Jim, I think the suggestion is that the descent stage *could* be programmed to right itself and lower itself gently. It has to have *some* amount of control function in it, since it has to indepedently maneuver itself away from the rover after it cuts the cables.

I wonder just how much mass might be available for a very small science package and a small transmitter that would relay meteorological and/or seismic data back to the rover, and thence through MRO back to Earth? You'd need some light, simple instruments, a small transmitter and a small antenna. How much would that weigh? And how much mass could MSL stand to be added to the overall package?

I don't think anyone really believes that such a capability will seriously be considered, but it's OK to at least think about it...

-the other Doug

The "legs" would have to have a shock absorbsion system and able to handle uneven terrain. Also, they would have to be folded and then deployed adding more failure modes.

Basically, the descent stage is landing a few meters above the surface.

It is doing exactly like you said
"Once landed, MSL could just be ....reeled down a few inches to the surface, cut loose, and then drive away"

That's what it is doing, just without a gap between landing and lowering

This is complex enough, adding more weight and requirements is just not going to happen. Maybe the 2nd, 3rd, 4th Mars crane, but not the first. Gotta run before you fly.

If we want a seismometer, the best way to do that is to deploy a network, and that doesn't look likely any time soon with the demise of Netlander. This would be a great Mars Scout mission, if it could be made cheap enough, with just a dead simple imager and seismometers. 4 landers would give good coverage, with the option of putting one or two in "challenging" but beautiful locations.

Are you sure about that...
As I understand it , skycrane will fly away quite fast up and away after releasing MSL lander ,suddenly lightened by about 700 kg...whooosh!
When it runs out of fuel ,poor thing will have some hight and speed so when it crashes it will burst any hydrazine reservoirs that may contain some residue of fuel...
Why do you think it will be dangerous for MSL lander to go near crashed skycrane even if it had some hydrazine left in its reservoirs as long as it doesn't fire its "laser weapon" on it ? I would like to see that thing on Mars seen through the eyes of MSL...

Any residual propellant or products could contaminate the science instruments

I think the MSL decent stage will be given the same sort of treatment as the MER backshell and chute....keep away. Although Mastcam might get us a nice shot from 100m away

Doug

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