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David
QUOTE (JamesFox @ Aug 16 2006, 11:07 AM) *
Also, why do they mention only three planet candidates to the news, while treating other qualifying objects in a a separate, not-mentioned to the news category? I've seen quite alot of opposition already.


My recommendation to anyone who has to talk to the press about this is:

1. Design a wallet-sized card that lists all the objects in the Solar System that will be labelled "planets" under the new definition: don't go overboard, but include name and a couple of basic facts, like diameter and "distance from the Sun".

2. Print out several hundred copies of this card.

3. Hand it out/ e-mail it to everybody who asks (and everybody who doesn't).
JamesFox
QUOTE (David @ Aug 16 2006, 07:15 AM) *
1. Design a wallet-sized card that lists all the objects in the Solar System that will be labelled "planets" under the new definition: don't go overboard, but include name and a couple of basic facts, like diameter and "distance from the Sun".


The problem with this is that the sizes of many objects are currently very uncertain. How big is Orcus, Sedna, or Varuna? Estimates have been made, and some objects are certainly big enough despite uncertainties in size, but I'm not sure how the public will take to such probably long-lasting indeterminate statuses. It will take years before even the objects currently known have thier sizes determined accurately enough.
David
QUOTE (JamesFox @ Aug 16 2006, 11:25 AM) *
The problem with this is that the sizes of many objects are currently very uncertain.


That's why God invented the asterisk.
Ames
QUOTE (JamesFox @ Aug 16 2006, 12:07 PM) *
I think a slightly more acceptable definition would stress the difference between the 'dwarf planets' and the 'eight classical planets', thus allowing those who are so inclined to ignore the dwarf planets, while the inclusivists would include the dwarf planets.


That sounds sensible to me and something that the public could understand.
But they are going to have a field day with barycenter...
"What? Barry Sentor? - never heard of him!"

I think Pluto should be a planet(maybe dwarf maybe -oid) with a large(in comparison) moon that just happens to be large enough to set the "Barry Sentor" above Plutos' surface. Why a double planet?

We either need to make it a simple definition that the Public will understand and accept, or a rigorous (and useful) definition for scientists. Otherwise I fear that the Public may just ignore the more difficult concepts and revert to the old definition of the solar-system and the scientsts will be off in their own word of planetoids, plutinos, barrycenters...



Nick
Ames
QUOTE (Ames @ Aug 16 2006, 12:40 PM) *
That sounds sensible to me and something that the public could understand.
But they are going to have a field day with barycenter...
"What? Barry Sentor? - never heard of him!"

I think Pluto should be a planet(maybe dwarf maybe -oid) with a large(in comparison) moon that just happens to be large enough to set the "Barry Sentor" above Plutos' surface. Why a double planet?

We either need to make it a simple definition that the Public will understand and accept, or a rigorous (and useful) definition for scientists. Otherwise I fear that the Public may just ignore the more difficult concepts and revert to the old definition of the solar-system and the scientsts will be off in their own word of planetoids, plutinos, barrycenters...
Nick



Actually Barry Senter huh.gif

www.barrysenterdesign.com

Hmmm! biggrin.gif

Nick
David
Does "double planet" imply a single entity that happens to consist of two units, or two planets that happen to be revolving around each other?

In other words, can one say "Pluto-Charon is a planet"?
MichaelT
QUOTE (David @ Aug 16 2006, 11:57 AM) *
Does "double planet" imply a single entity that happens to consist of two units, or two planets that happen to be revolving around each other?

In other words, can one say "Pluto-Charon is a planet"?

I don't think so. The IAU release explicitely states 12 planets including Charon. If the double planet was counted as one entity, there'd be only 11. So they are two planets revolving around each other.

Michael
ugordan
QUOTE (MichaelT @ Aug 16 2006, 01:07 PM) *
So they are two planets revolving around each other.

Hmm... We seem to be running in circles here, so to speak. Didn't they say a body needs to orbit the Sun, not another body, in order to be classified as a planet? If so, how can Charon (and for that matter Pluto as well!) be a planet?
paxdan
QUOTE (ugordan @ Aug 16 2006, 01:25 PM) *
Hmm... We seem to be running in circles here, so to speak. Didn't they say a body needs to orbit the Sun, not another body, in order to be classified as a planet? If so, how can Charon (and for that matter Pluto as well!) be a planet?

Barry Sentor would like a word
ngunn
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Aug 16 2006, 05:23 AM) *
So, is the new nursery-rhyme mnemonic for the planets going to go something lik this?

"My Very Educated Mother, Catherine, Just Served Us Nine Pickled, Spicy Xylophones."

biggrin.gif

-the other Doug


How about: Many Vexed Experts Make Confusing Judgment So Us Normal People Say 'XXXX'
ljk4-1
Just how binding is the IAU decision on astronomers, both professional and
amateur?

Does it have to be taken any more seriously than, say, the UN Outer Space
Treaties are?

People are already buying up lunar property. Just wait until corporations start
landing there to mine the regolith and see how quickly and easily their lawyers
circumvent that dated bunch of rules.

As for an example right here on Earth, the Antarctic Treaty is frequently
violated and ignored by the numerous countries which claim various sections of
the southernmost continent, which they have sliced up like a pie. There are even
ongoing disputes over who owns certain parts of Antarctica.

In their efforts to keep Pluto an "official" planet, the IAU has made the issue even
more complicated for future generations. We still know so little about "Xena" and
you know there are even bigger worlds out there just waiting to be found and
argued over.

And what about all those objects orbiting other stars?

They should have gone with planetoids.
rogelio
Dateline 2015: U.S. Postal Service issues revised planetary exploration postage stamp series ending with “Xena –Not Yet Explored (or formally named)”...
Ames
QUOTE (ngunn @ Aug 16 2006, 01:44 PM) *
How about: Many Vexed Experts Make Confusing Judgment So Us Normal People Say 'XXXX'


I like it biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Nick
Alan Stern
QUOTE (ugordan @ Aug 16 2006, 12:25 PM) *
Hmm... We seem to be running in circles here, so to speak. Didn't they say a body needs to orbit the Sun, not another body, in order to be classified as a planet? If so, how can Charon (and for that matter Pluto as well!) be a planet?



Owing to its high mass relative to Pluto, Pluto-Charon's barycenter is in free space,
which means Charon is technically in orbit about the Sun, not Pluto. This is not a debatable
fact, it's just the way the dynamics works.
ngunn
QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Aug 16 2006, 01:57 PM) *
Owing to its high mass relative to Pluto, Pluto-Charon's barycenter is in free space,
which means Charon is technically in orbit about the Sun, not Pluto. This is not a debatable
fact, it's just the way the dynamics works.


The barycenter of the solar system is also in free space. Does this mean that technically Jupiter is in orbit about the Milky Way, not the Sun?
maycm
My kids have a video of "Blues Clues" where 'Steve' sings the following song to teach them about the planets.

Oh the Sun's a hot star
And Mercury's hot too
Venus is the brightest planet
And Earth is home to me and you
Mars is the red one
And Jupiter's most wide
Saturn's got those icy rings,
and Uranus spins on it's side
Neptune's really windy And Pluto's really small

Well we wanted to name the planets and now we named them all.


...seems it will need updating. Any suggestions? I know there are some creative people here tongue.gif
ugordan
QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Aug 16 2006, 01:57 PM) *
Owing to its high mass relative to Pluto, Pluto-Charon's barycenter is in free space,
which means Charon is technically in orbit about the Sun, not Pluto.

Why would that mean Charon is technically orbiting the sun? What difference does it make whether or not the barycenter is below the surface of the primary body? What's so special about surface radius, dynamically speaking?
Shouldn't the fact which object exerts a greater force on the moon determine what it's technically orbiting? Similar to the case with our Luna -- I don't know the numbers or if it's exactly true, but it's been stated the Sun exerts a greater pull on it than Earth does. So technically the Moon orbits the Sun.
This barycenter-based definition sounds pretty vague and useless to me.
David
QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Aug 16 2006, 12:57 PM) *
Owing to its high mass relative to Pluto, Pluto-Charon's barycenter is in free space,
which means Charon is technically in orbit about the Sun, not Pluto. This is not a debatable
fact, it's just the way the dynamics works.


Of course Charon is in orbit around the Sun, but then so is Earth's Moon.

Here's another way to look at it: if you sketch the ellipse of Charon's orbit about the Pluto-Charon barycentre, Pluto is always within Charon's orbit; if you sketch the ellipse of Pluto's orbit, Charon is never found inside it:


Pluto's orbit is so close to the barycentre that saying that Charon doesn't orbit Pluto (but rather a bit of empty space close to Pluto), though technically correct, seems whimsical, sort of like denying that Jupiter revolves around the Sun.
djellison
I must admit - I was explaining all this to my ever fascinated colleague Josh ( for those that watch QI I said "How many planets are there Josh" "Nice?" "BZZZZZZZZZ -awooga...awoooga" ) and we debated the point of Charon getting an upgrade.

Why should the movement of the barycenter from 1m below the mean radius to 1m above reclassify the system from being planet + moon to being binary?

Systems evolve, that reclassification could occur during the lifetime of a system, and I don't think a body should be reclassified from moon to planet just because it got a little further away.

A body is what a body is....it doesnt matter where it is (as the rest of these new rules would have us believe)...and I think it makes a bit of a farce of the system if suddently we have to go back to our text books because a system has evolved and scrub out 'moons...1' and instead right "binary planet"

BUT....then...there ARE likely to be binary systems out there, so at what point do you say "ok - this is now a binary system, not planet+moon" - mass, radius, etc etc....you do need a cut off, but I don't think it should be one that can change.

Doug
Tom Tamlyn
Today's New York Times has a good article on the controversy, with quotes from Alan Stern, as well as an op-ed piece by Mike Brown.

TTT
David
QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 16 2006, 01:37 PM) *
Systems evolve, that reclassification could occur during the lifetime of a system, and I don't think a body should be reclassified from moon to planet just because it got a little further away.


I'm just imagining:

1) A "lumpy" primary (shaped something like Iapetus) where the barycentre is sometimes below the actual surface and sometimes above it

2) An ellipsoidal primary, where the barycentre is sometimes below the actual or notional surface of the ellipsoid and sometimes above it

3) A primary with a thick atmosphere, where the barycentre is suspended somewhere "in the middle of the air"

4) A primary with an atmosphere whose height changes seasonally, so that the barycentre is sometimes in the atmosphere and sometimes in space

You can have all sorts of fun with this, the more so if you happen to live on such a world. "Is that the Moon?" "No, it's a planet... today..."
ngunn
QUOTE (Ames @ Aug 16 2006, 01:53 PM) *
I like it biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Nick


Grand! However I now realise my mnemonic needs editing. I was following 'the other Doug' who inadvertently inserted an S (for Sharon?) instead of a C for Charon. My definitive version is now as follows:

Many Vexed Experts Make Confusing Judgment So Us Normal People Cry 'XXXX'

The wor(l)d denoted by XXXX has not yet been fully explored.

Incidentally I see that the word 'farce' has just entered this discussion. . . quite so.
Greg Hullender
It does seem that it would have been useful to create a more general term (e.g. planetoid) to cover any non-fusing body rounded by its own gravity (absent effects of rotation or tides) but ignoring its orbital dynamics. Eath, Luna, Ceres, Titan, etc. would all be planetoids. Everything smaller could be an asteroid (or maybe a new name), while everything larger would be a star. Only a truly transforming cataclysm could transform one into another.

A multiple planetoid would just be any long-term stable, gravitationally bound set of planetoids. (Likewise you could have a multiple asteroid I guess.)

The planet vs. moon distinction still comes down to whether one member of the system sufficiently dominates the rest. I suppose the barycenter definition is as good as any for this purpose, although it bothers me that it depends on the density of the planet(oid).

This also suggests that we might usefully make a distinction between a "moon," which would have to be a planetoid, and a "moonlet" (is there a better name) which is just an asteroid that's gravitationally bound to a planetoid.
mcaplinger
The barycenter rule is laughable, IMHO. You'd think they could have tried a little harder if the intent was to handle extrasolar double planets in the future, unless somebody had some political agenda to make Charon a planet. I'd have tried to make the minimum barycenter distance some function of the body radii so as to exclude Charon.

I also wonder how well the hydrostatic rule will work in practice around the low end, something we are likely to see either for KBOs or even for the larger asteroids.

Leave it to the IAU to overcomplicate what was a seemingly simple question.
ljk4-1
A camel: A horse designed by committee.
alan
They can't change Pluto's clasification without getting hate mail from millions of children so they had to come up with another definition. Once Quaour's size has been confirmed by stellar occultion it will be added too. Then the kids will have to learn how to pronounce Quaoar, that'll fix them. tongue.gif
David
QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Aug 16 2006, 02:33 PM) *
I'd have tried to make the minimum barycenter distance some function of the body radii so as to exclude Charon.


Let me suggest instead that the criterion should be in terms of ratio of the smaller distance to the barycentre / the total distance between the gravitational centers of the two objects -- regardless of the radius of either of the two bodies. That ratio would be the same as the ratio of the smaller of the two bodies to the combined mass of the system.

A "perfect" double planet would consist of two objects of the same mass with the barycentre halfway between them. Nobody would quarrel with that being called a double planet.

A possible criterion for a double planet system might be something like: a system in which the distance from the gravitational center of the smaller body to the barycentre is at least one third of the total distance between the gravitational centers of the two bodies -- in other words, the mass of the smaller body should be at least half the mass of the larger one.
JRehling
[...]
jsheff
Results are in:

IAU
maycm
QUOTE (jsheff @ Aug 16 2006, 12:35 PM) *
Results are in:

IAU


....well not yet.... they vote Thursday 24th August
AlexBlackwell
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but here's Kevin Drum's take on the issue.
vexgizmo
"A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape...."

The "roundness" criterion seems to me to be the start of a good definition. And if Pluto is a planet so is Ceres. However, the qualificaitions of "dwarf planet," "pluton," and planet-if-beyond-the barycenter seem extraneous. But there is a problem here. Keep in mind that we have no idea if Callisto is truly in hydrostatic equilibrium, so surely we have no idea about 2003 UB313. In reality the definition can't really be of "hydrostatic equilibrium" without defining an error bar. This seems pedantic but becomes a real issue: does Vesta count? Before its large impact, its shape was probably hydrostatic (cf. Thomas et al., Science 277, 1492 - 1495, 1997). Is Vesta penalized just for being whacked with an impact large compared to its radius?
David
QUOTE (JRehling @ Aug 16 2006, 04:29 PM) *
I don't see how, especially with distant KBOs and extrasolar objects being up for consideration, anyone can be happy with a criterion that depends upon precise measurement. This would mean that as new observations are made, we'll discover planets, then, with arbitrarily minute revisions, have to say in some cases, "We were mistaken -- that wasn't a planet."


Ultimately all taxonomic systems have "marginal cases" problems. That's not a flaw in the concept of taxonomy, it just comes with the territory. What's a little odd, however, is to see one taxonomic criterion denounced for having marginal cases, or depending upon precise measurement, while another taxonomic criterion -- that also has marginal cases problems -- is proposed as a replacement.

Anyway, while the IAU's proposal creates a framework for discussion, I don't expect it to be the last word; I imagine that, whatever the IAU decides on, it will be revisited many, many times in the years to come, as more and more data better defines the shape of the problem.

QUOTE (vexgizmo @ Aug 16 2006, 04:51 PM) *
"A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape...."
This seems pedantic but becomes a real issue: does Vesta count? Before its large impact, its shape was probably hydrostatic (cf. Thomas et al., Science 277, 1492 - 1495, 1997). Is Vesta penalized just for being whacked with an impact large compared to its radius?


Alan Stern discussed this above (post #28 above, with my reply following). One of the reasons I remain focused on actual roundness as opposed to essential or intrinsic or original or probable roundness is that it has at least one practical application in terms of planetary cartography: in those terms a (really) round object is one that you can map using cartographic tools and techniques developed for mapping the earth without extensive error, and an irregular object is one that requires the use of exotic shape models and grids. I don't know exactly where that line would be drawn, but you could try asking Phil Stooke.
hendric
The correct answer for the marginal cases is simply making an edict from on high, after a suitable amount of time researching the size. For example, KBO 2010 XYZ112 is bright enough it's albedo could let it be greater than the cut off. Wait a decade (seems like a reasonable time limit), then if there still is uncertainty, pronounce an edict.
AlexBlackwell
QUOTE (David @ Aug 16 2006, 07:14 AM) *
Ultimately all taxonomic systems have "marginal cases" problems. That's not a flaw in the concept of taxonomy, it just comes with the territory.

That's very true, and very legalistic, too. In fact, my wife, who happens to be a lawyer, quoted Justice John Paul Stevens from the oral argument in Roper v. Simmons:

QUOTE
...but the purpose of a [constitutional] bright line test is to avoid litigation over the borderline cases...
AlexBlackwell
The editorial that appears in the August 17, 2006, issue of Nature:

QUOTE
Editorial

Nature 442, 719 (17 August 2006) | doi:10.1038/442719a; Published online 16 August 2006

Round objects

Planets are spherical, and the International Astronomical Union's attempt to make this part of their definition has merit.


There was once a prissy British civil servant who, when he came across a passage in a memo that displeased him, wrote "round objects" in the margin as a synonym for something ruder. This arch circumlocution was lost on the bluff minister he served, who fired back a query as to who this Round fellow was, and why he objected so much.

We can expect there to be plenty of members of the International Astronomical Union (IAU) who, reading the proposed new definition of a planet offered to them by their executive committee, will want to scrawl something equally rude and rather blunter in the margin — and will want to make their objections heard, possibly quite vociferously, at their general assembly in Prague this week (see page 724).

We understand and, to some extent, sympathize. But we would suggest that, instead, they acquiesce in the new definition, which will have the effect of increasing the number of planets in the Solar System to 12, and open the doors to more. They should do this for two reasons: it is not a bad definition; and it will at least stop the rumbling debate over the status of Pluto.

In the 1990s, it became clear that Pluto, the most newly discovered planet, was the most conspicuous of a crowd of icy 'trans-neptunian objects' (TNOs), some of which might well be larger. There was an obvious historical parallel to this situation with asteroids in the nineteenth century. When it was found that there were dozens of asteroids, Ceres, the largest and first discovered, was demoted from its position as a proper planet; it is now a 'minor planet' along with all the other asteroids. Pluto, it was argued by analogy, should be a minor planet with the rest of the TNOs on similar grounds.

This proposal sparked a degree of public debate that irritated many astronomers, who felt that the question of whether a particular body gets called a planet or not is of no scientific interest whatsoever. Still, the IAU decided that it should try and resolve the matter: planets loom large in the public imagination, and it seemed only reasonable for astronomers to be able to say whether a new discovery (or for that matter an old friend) was a planet or not.

The IAU's proposal is that the term 'planet' should apply to an object that has a sufficiently strong gravitational field to have pulled itself into a spherical shape, that is in orbit around a star, but that is not a star itself. This lets in Pluto and 2003 UB313, a TNO that is a touch bigger and not yet equipped with an IAU-approved name. It also readmits Ceres. And in the most peculiar aspect of the whole business, Charon, previously considered to be a moon of Pluto, will become a planet in its own right. Moons, however spherical, will remain satellites, not planets, in the IAU's eyes. But because the centre of mass of the Pluto–Charon system lies outside the body of Pluto, Charon, although tiny compared with, say, Neptune's moon Triton, qualifies as a planet.

Nine more TNOs, and three more asteroids, will become candidate planets, pending further investigation of how spherical they are. More planetary TNOs may follow, when discovered. To tidy things up, the minor planets will get renamed: those that don't have enough of a gravitational grip on themselves to be proper planets will now be 'small Solar System bodies'.

All this will doubtless lead to ructions. But it is at least a coherent approach, and it has a fairly clear basis in physical properties. It has been convenient to have a small and easily memorized number of planets in the Solar System, but convenience is not the only thing that counts. The effects of mass define (unofficially) the upper limits of the planetary realm; anything big enough for fusion is a star. It is fitting, then, that mass should define the lower limit too. This, we think, adds up to a case for IAU members to accept the proposal.
JRehling
[...]
Alan Stern
[
> DPS PRESS RELEASE (Released 16 August 2006)
>
> "Planetary Scientists Support Proposed Redefinition of a Planet"
>
> Recent discoveries of objects in the outer reaches of our Solar System
> have forced scientists to reconsider what it means to be a planet. The
> International Astronomical Union (IAU) has proposed a new definition of a
> planet as a celestial body whose gravity is strong enough for it to be
> nearly round in shape and which is in orbit around a star but is itself
> neither a star nor a satellite of a planet. According to this definition,
> the nine traditional planets in our Solar System would be joined by Ceres
> (the largest of the asteroids), by Charon (Pluto's largest moon), and by
> 2003 UB313 (the provisional name for a recently discovered object larger
> and more distant from the Sun than Pluto). Pluto and Charon would be
> regarded as a double planet, rather than as a planet and satellite,
> because their center of gravity lies outside of Pluto itself (the only
> such case known in our Solar System.) There is a candidate list of
> additional objects that may be large enough to qualify as planets, subject
> to confirmation by the IAU.
>
> The IAU resolution also recognizes Pluto as the prototype of a new class
> of planetary objects to be known as "plutons." In contrast to the
> classical planets, plutons typically have quite non-circular orbits and
> take more than 200 years to orbit the Sun. With increasingly sensitive and
> broad searches of the outer solar system well underway, it is quite likely
> that additional Pluto-like planets will be discovered.
>
> The Division for Planetary Sciences (DPS) of the American Astronomical
> Society is the world's largest international professional society of
> planetary scientists. The DPS Committee, elected by our membership,
> strongly supports the IAU resolution. It was proposed after two years of
> careful review by an international panel of expert planetary scientists,
> followed by a broadly representative international group of historians,
> writers, and scientists. The new definition is clear and compact, it is
> firmly based on the physical properties of celestial objects themselves,
> and it is applicable to planets found around other stars. It opens the
> possibility for many new Pluto-like planets to be discovered in our Solar
> System.
>
> The proposed definition will be brought to the IAU General Assembly for a
> vote on August 24, 2006. As representatives of an international community
> of planetary scienti
vexgizmo
QUOTE (David @ Aug 16 2006, 10:14 AM) *
Alan Stern discussed this above (post #28 above, with my reply following).

QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Aug 15 2006, 11:23 AM) *
I's about whether its massive enough **Tto be rounded by gravity** in the absence of
the other effects.

-Alan


But Vesta likely was once "rounded" by gravity, and then later smashed. In fact, its post-impact shape still may prove to be well-approximated by a hydrostatic figure. Again, I like this definition, but I suspect we will be arguing Vesta and others, and arguably Xena doesn't seem to make the cut until we measure its triaxial shape.

-Bob P.
David
QUOTE (vexgizmo @ Aug 16 2006, 05:58 PM) *
But Vesta likely was once "rounded" by gravity, and then later smashed. In fact, its post-impact shape still may prove to be well-approximated by a hydrostatic figure. Again, I like this definition, but I suspect we will be arguing Vesta and others, and Xena doesn't seem to make the cut until we measure its triaxial shape.


I have some thoughts on Vesta's shape, but having gotten myself unnecessarily exercised on this point in the past, I'm inclined to wait until either Dawn or the next generation of telescopes provides a much better image of Vesta's shape than we currently have. I don't mind waiting several years to have an argument. smile.gif
Phil Stooke
As a rule of thumb for whether a non-spherical world should be mapped on a conventional map projection or a special one (like my morphographic projections), I have said in the past that a 10 percent difference between max and min radii makes a sensible division. Earth's max and min radii (center of mass to top of lithosphere, Chimborazo to floor of Arctic Ocean) differ by 0.5 percent. But like all these choices it's purely arbitrary, and in a situation where shapes will usually be poorly known this will be a serious problem.

People want definitions to be like fences, but usually they are central conditions with fuzzy edges.

I have no problem calling Ceres a planet, but I'm utterly mystified by the idea that Charon should be one. It's a satellite.

Phil
JRehling
[...]
AlexBlackwell
Phil Plait has an interesting take on it.
David
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Aug 16 2006, 06:08 PM) *
As a rule of thumb for whether a non-spherical world should be mapped on a conventional map projection or a special one (like my morphographic projections), I have said in the past that a 10 percent difference between max and min radii makes a sensible division.


Is that: if the maximum is 110% of the minimum? Or: if the minimum is 90% of the maximum?
AlexBlackwell
QUOTE (JRehling @ Aug 16 2006, 08:16 AM) *
Alex, I'm trying to parse down to the nugget of your reasoning there. Because the term "planet" has changed considerably since its origin, it's OK to change it again now?

I don't have any problems continually redefining "planet," John, especially in light of our ever expanding knowledge base. In fact, I wouldn't have had any problems in using the sizes of Pluto and Charon, with reasonable error bars, as the "bright line" divider for conferring planetary status on an object orbiting the sun. Moreover, given the inevitability of finding "borderline cases" in the Edgeworth-Kuiper Belt, I could have even learned to live with denying planetary status to objects that fell just under the cutoff in size. There are tradeoffs, to be sure, and as Justice Antonin Scalia noted out the outset of the aforementioned oral argument in Roper v. Simmons:

QUOTE
So there's -- there's some minimal level of mental retardation. Right? And isn't that necessarily over-inclusive, just as picking any single age is necessarily over-inclusive?
volcanopele
now that I have heard the rational for the double planet scenario (like Pluto-Charon), I am a bit more confortable with it. Basically, they are using historical prescedent to influence this part of the definition. For example, a binary star system may consist of two vastly different worlds, say a blue giant and a red dwarf. The barycenter is located outside either star, but most importantly, both are considered stars. It isn't one blue giant star, and a red dwarf planet (or some such). They are just two stars in the same system. one scenario contemplated was the possibility of two extrasolar gas giants orbiting around a common center of mass. Are both planets? Is only the largest a planet?
JRehling
[...]
David
QUOTE (JRehling @ Aug 16 2006, 07:58 PM) *
And, as I mentioned before, what about a very planetlike body (Earth, Saturn -- take your pick) that is in deep space, not orbiting a star. If it's not a planet, what the heck is it? Or if it were orbiting an object that is not a star (a pulsar).


I feel some discomfort with the idea of a dark object in the interstellar void being called a planet; both on historical grounds, and because such an object, in permanent darkness, conditions of extreme cold, and not gravitationally bound to another object, couldn't be expected to behave like any of the objects we know as planets.

We don't have names for such objects because they haven't been observed. As hypotheticals, I'd prefer "dark object" or, really, anything other than "planet".

As for the Charon question, why not extend the "planetary" honor to planet-sized satellites as well? Just call them "satellite planets" or the like. There's historical justification for this: the Moon, of course, was once considered a planet, and Galileo, Huygens, and Cassini dubbed their finds "planets" before the term "satellite" came to be generally accepted.
Jyril
The barycenter criterion may become handy in the case of a binary where both similar-sized components would qualify as planets (otherwise it wouldn't be clear which one is the planet and which one is the satellite).
jsheff
I don't have a problem with roundness as a criterion, but:

1) why didn't they define an upper limit as well? The phrase "is not a star ..." is insufficient. Has the word "STAR" been defined somewhere else by the IAU? They could have said the upper limit is when a body is capable of initiating a thermonuclear reaction in its core, or that its 13 Jupiters, or whatever. Just saying "is not a star" is a cop-out.

2) They defined a planet, for better or worse. They should have left it at that! It seems most people are objecting to the "double-planet" phrase; personally I'm confused as to why they felt the need to define a "pluton". There are already definitions for things like ""plutinos", or "cubewanos", or "Kuiper objects" or "extended scattered disk" that are already in use by informal convention, and it's been working fine; there has not been any controversy about that.

3) Er, need I state the obvious? ... a planet is a "celestial" object. What does "celestial" mean? In common usage it is used to distinguish something that's not earthly. So doesn't this definition exclude Earth? (We're back down to 11 planets, LOL!)

- John Sheff
Cambridge, MA
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