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Holder of the Two Leashes
The weathering being referred to here is the general darkening of an airless surface by the implantation of solar wind particles. Local areas of relatively high magnetic strength on the moon are lighter colored than their surroundings because they prevent this weathering.

But you make a good point. Vesta might have more gardening from impacts, since it is in the main belt. That could lighten up the surface, too. Which might make it even harder to guess about the cause.

Edit - Wait, wait. Sorry. You were talking about micrometeorites. Yes, they do darken the surface. I really don't know by what proportion. However, if you look at a picture of Reiner Gamma on the moon, you can see what a difference a magnetic shield can make.
punkboi
New Dawn journal up:

http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_2_29_08.asp
peter59
I nearly forgot about these cancelled missions.

Pre-Dawn: The French-Soviet VESTA mission

Very interesting three proposed trajectory for two spacecrafts.

Trajectory 1:
-launch from Earth
-Mars gravity assist
-flyby of 2335 James (a 10 km X-type asteroid) (an Amor-asteroid)
-Mars gravity assist
-109 Felicitas (C-type, 76 km)
-739 Mandeville (EMP(?) type, 110 km)
-4 Vesta (V-type, or Vestoid. Has a diameter of 570 km) flyby with 3.5 km/s. A penetrator is released.
Total delta-v: 450 m/s

Trajectory 2:
-launch from Earth
-Mars gravity assist
-flyby of the P/Tritton short period comet
-Mars gravity assist
-2087 Kochera (30 km?)
-1 Ceres (flyby & releasing a penetrator)
Total delta-v: 1150 m/s

Trajectory 3:
-launch from Earth
-Mars gravity assist
-1204 Renzia (10 km?) (an Amor-asteroid)
-Mars gravity assist
-435 Ella (U type, 30 km)
-46 Hestia (F type, 165 km)
-135 Hertha (M type, 80 km)
Total delta-v: 350 m/s
peter59
Dawn Completes Another Month of Thrusting
March 31, 2008
Dawn thrust with its ion propulsion system for most of March, stopping once each week to point its main antenna to Earth. Almost 96% of the month was devoted to thrusting.
Stu
QUOTE (peter59 @ Apr 1 2008, 04:38 PM) *
Dawn Completes Another Month of Thrusting
March 31, 2008


What is this, "Carry On Spaceflight"?!?!?! I could swear I heard Sid James laughing when I read that title... tongue.gif
Greg Hullender
I just noticed that Dawn has substantially upgraded their "Where is Dawn" page.

http://www.dawn-mission.org/mission/live_shots.asp

Now I have something to keep me entertained for the next 1213 days. :-)

--Greg
Holder of the Two Leashes
Yes, the diagrams are much better now, especially compared to the earlier monochome ones where you could barely tell the different orbits apart.

And ... the latest monthly thrusting report.

April 22

Carry on ... smile.gif
mps
Meanwhile somewhere on the vicinity of Mars...

Dawn Journal, May 27

quote: be sure to visit the cool new feature "Where is Dawn Now?" at http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/live_shots.asp. The site includes depictions not only of the craft's trajectory and location but also of its attitude
punkboi
New Dawn journal up:

http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_6_26_08.asp
dmuller
QUOTE (peter59 @ Mar 21 2008, 02:34 AM) *


I noticed the following paragraph in the above article:
QUOTE
I've heard it's not ruled out that Dawn will be directed to rendezvous with 2 Pallas (for a slow flyby) in 2018, after the main mission at Vesta and Ceres is completed and enough fuel is left.

Is that possibly still on the cards?
nprev
laugh.gif ...Dr. Rayman is a hoot! He sure can write an entertaining update.
ilbasso
He is indeed quite an entertaining writer.

Maybe during the relatively quiet years of the cruise phase, ESA could contract out to him to write mission updates of the probes they purportedly have deployed around the solar system.
Greg Hullender
QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 30 2008, 04:11 AM) *
laugh.gif ...Dr. Rayman is a hoot! He sure can write an entertaining update.


A joke or two can be funny, but not one or two in every paragraph. It's hard to tell sometimes what's serious and what's not. Also, for my tastes, very little of his humor is actually funny.

--Greg
ugordan
QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jun 30 2008, 02:41 PM) *
Also, for my tastes, very little of his humor is actually funny.

Sadly, this is often the case for me as well which is a shame because it distracts from otherwise detailed status reports he makes.
MahFL
He sounds like a typical slightly nutty scientist type.........
djellison
See this...

----------------------

That's a line being drawn under the debate regarding Marc's writing. Some like it. Some don't. End of debate.
jasedm
I'm just pleased that we get regular updates on the mission.
The possible post-main mission rendezvous with Pallas hasn't been mentioned for a while, but IIRC the mechanics of setting it up are difficult due to Pallas' orbit being appreciably out of ecliptic.
Maybe the mission planners are going to present the relevant trajectories as a fait accompli when they're lobbying for that mission extension... wink.gif
3488
QUOTE (jasedm @ Jul 1 2008, 11:30 AM) *
I'm just pleased that we get regular updates on the mission.
The possible post-main mission rendezvous with Pallas hasn't been mentioned for a while, but IIRC the mechanics of setting it up are difficult due to Pallas' orbit being appreciably out of ecliptic.
Maybe the mission planners are going to present the relevant trajectories as a fait accompli when they're lobbying for that mission extension... wink.gif


I hope so. In December 2018, 2 Palles is on the descending node. In fact DAWN would not even have to leave the plane of 1 Cere's orbit to do this, as 2 Pallas will intersect that plane. The biggest issues will be the supply of Xenon, & the state of the solar arrays, will they still be producing enough power?

I really, really hope that the 2 Pallas option stays open. To bag all three of the Asteroid Belt's largest members would be a real accomplishment. However 2 Pallas would not be orbited, but could be a slow encounter, enabling much of the giant asteroid to be seen at a fairly high resolution.

Whilst 4 Vesta & 1 Ceres are primary mission aims, I think to not lose sight of 2 Pallas as an encore right at the very end, would be worthwhile.

No decent Hubble Space Telescope images exist of 2 Pallas do they, or have I not been able to find them?

Andrew Brown.
ElkGroveDan
QUOTE (3488 @ Jul 1 2008, 07:42 AM) *
No decent Hubble Space Telescope images exist of 2 Pallas do they, or have I not been able to find them?


from http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/2502.pdf

"Figure 1: Pallas imaged by HST in 336nm UV filter."
Del Palmer
QUOTE (3488 @ Jul 1 2008, 04:42 PM) *
No decent Hubble Space Telescope images exist of 2 Pallas do they, or have I not been able to find them?


Depends what you mean by "decent." wink.gif I don't recall seeing any press release images of Pallas from STScI, but there is a set of WFPC2 images in the MAST archive. Looks like they were taken using gyro-guiding, and so the targeting was a little off...

Del Palmer
QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jul 1 2008, 05:55 PM) *
"Figure 1: Pallas imaged by HST in 336nm UV filter."


Dan, great find! smile.gif Have not seen that in the raw data archives...

3488
QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jul 1 2008, 05:55 PM) *
from http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/2502.pdf

"Figure 1: Pallas imaged by HST in 336nm UV filter."


Thank you very much Dan,

I tried, high & low to find HST imagery of 2 Pallas. I had heard before that the triaxial shape had been determined from rotational light curves. That is a very good image & quite clearly shows a rounded triangular profile, the best I've ever seen of this gigantic asteroid.

I've downloaded the image.

QUOTE (Del Palmer @ Jul 1 2008, 05:56 PM) *
Depends what you mean by "decent." wink.gif I don't recall seeing any press release images of Pallas from STScI, but there is a set of WFPC2 images in the MAST archive. Looks like they were taken using gyro-guiding, and so the targeting was a little off...


Thank you very much Del also for your help.

The scientific case for DAWN to go onto 2 Pallas after the end of the primary mission is compelling.

It's great to be back here, hopefully I can contribute something of interest at some point.

Andrew Brown.
tedstryk
This is another Hubble view. During the 2001 observations, the Hubble missed Pallas with its Planetary Camera chip, getting the image with its lower-resolution wide field portion of WFPC2.

Click to view attachment
Del Palmer
Latest Dawn update:

http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_8_24_08.asp


Greg Hullender
Hmmm. He raises the point that Dawn will cross Mars' orbit before the gravitational assist but doesn't seem to explain why. Obviously this happens with Venus gravitational assists, but that's unavoidable. I'm trying to think why it would be better to do the assist from the far side of Mars, but I can't think of any -- other than the question-begging one of "it wouldn't work the other way".

Does anyone know?

--Greg
djellison
The Mars flyby is mainly about changing the orbital inclination of Dawn iirc.
Greg Hullender
That makes sense -- I'd wondered why the projected path didn't seem to show much change after the assist -- but it still seems you could just as easily change inclination on an outbound flyby as an inbound one.

Again, I'm sure there's a reason why this works out to be superior -- I'm just not seeing what it is. Why is this outer-planet flyby different from all others?

--Greg
3488
Also as Doug before you said, it is about changing inclination & also speed. The Mars encounter IIRC also prevents DAWN from coming much closer to the Sun again.

Andrew Brown.
Greg Hullender
QUOTE (3488 @ Aug 27 2008, 12:25 PM) *
Also as Doug before you said, it is about changing inclination & also speed. The Mars encounter IIRC also prevents DAWN from coming much closer to the Sun again.


I wasn't wondering "why is there a Mars flyby." I was wondering "why is this an 'inbound' (toward the Sun) flyby not an 'outbound' one."

Given the way ion propulsion works (long-term but weak), I'm actually surprised Dawn can do this maneuver at all. I'd have thought the thrust would always be close to parallel to the velocity vector and that the orbit (if they turned the engines off) would be nearly circular at any given point. But Dawn is actually falling back towards the Sun (a little) in order to make this flyby.

Maybe that explains it; the angle between the velocity vector of the spacecraft and the velocity vector of the planet needs to get smaller during the flyby or else energy will be lost, not gained. Perhaps it's easier to lift Dawn above the orbit of Mars and then drop it than it would be to get it to rise past it at any significant angle. In that case, though, I do wonder why they quit thrusting entirely for a few months before and after the assist. It'd seem you could get a steeper angle that way.

Of course I know you plan your orbits with the planets you have -- not the planets you'd like to have. :-) At a certain point, I suppose the answer is just "Yeah, you'd go faster, but you wouldn't get to Vesta."

--Greg
BrianJ
QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Aug 29 2008, 06:02 PM) *
I wasn't wondering "why is there a Mars flyby." I was wondering "why is this an 'inbound' (toward the Sun) flyby not an 'outbound' one."

Hi, just wanted to point out that for earlier launch windows, the flyby was indeed "outbound", as per this image http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._as_of_2006.jpg

Also, just out of interest, here's a graphic comparing the orbit of Dawn to the orbit of Mars, before and after the (current trajectory) flyby.
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3606/dawn1copyzs2.gif

Regards,
Brian
dmuller
My two cents worth:

Dawn is picking up speed from the flyby. As this happens halfway between periapsis (closest point to sun) and apoapsis (farthest point to sun), both are raised. It also rotates the apsises clockwise, so Dawn will be at periapsis shortly after the Mars encounter. By thrusting then, it efficiently raises the apoapsis further. It also increases the inclination from 1.9 to 6.5 degrees, which I think would be costly to do without a gravity assist.

I dont think it makes a difference whether the flyby is inbound or outbound, you gain speed w.r.t. sun as long as you fly behind Mars.

Horizons gives the following orbital elements w.r.t. solar system barycenter (Mars flyby as inferred from Horizons data is around Feb 12):
CODE
                  1 Feb 2009     28 Feb 2009     Change
Eccentricity        0.160521        0.132016     orbit gets rounder
Periapsis (km)   180,738,278     203,950,288     +23 million km
Apoapsis (km)    249,858,224     265,989,955     +16 million km
Inclination           1.9249          6.5018     gets steeper
tasp
I will reiterate my ignorance about such matters, but will still post a question.

Let's say the Dawn ion drive accels the craft nominally at .001 G right now (neglecting slow increase in accel with fuel mass depletion) and let's say every one in the front office monitoring the engine is happy to sign off at running it in the range of .00085 to .00115 G.

And the office crew is ok with adjusting the throttle from time to time, so long as Mars encounter and Vesta arrival (or was Ceres first ? no matter) happen on schedule, and the average accel is .001 for optimal fuel utilization.

So, by tweaking the throttle only, in the narrow approved range, with a minimum impact to our amazing flight of discovery to Vesta and Ceres, how far off the 'nominal track' can the probe get, and does this resulting 'lens' shaped area in the graph (assuming frame of reference w/ Dawn) take us near anything known and interesting ??

For example, from Mars to Vesta, we accel at lower approved G limit 1/2 way and then go rest of the way at higher approved rate (allowing for the trajectory smiths to approve limits, of course) or we accel 1/2 way at higher G limit, then at lower limit the rest of the way. This gives us an area (instead of a line) along the way to Vesta we can explore for interesting objects to encounter for 'free'. (other than the brain wear and tear it takes to figure this out)

So is this already obvious to everyone and has been found to be undesirable for some reason I haven't figured out yet, or does this put a toe in the door for a free extra object to look at ??

( I am assuming the area potentially available with this technique compared to the known number of asteroids yields a figure of >1 for # of objects on average expected to be in an area of that size, but if it is more like .001, then it looks like I have my answer . . . )


blink.gif



dmuller
QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Aug 30 2008, 04:02 AM) *
that the orbit (if they turned the engines off) would be nearly circular at any given point.

Greg, that does not seem to be the case. To start with, the original post-launch (pre-ion thrusting) was nowhere near a circle (150m km x 246m km). And the Mars flyby boosts both the periapsis and apoapsis quite a lot (as compared to the thrusting)

Again from Horizons:
CODE
Date        Periapsis         Apoapsis
1-Oct-07     150,019,330      246,071,890
1-Nov-07     150,128,927      244,454,659
1-Jan-08     151,655,060      246,166,277
1-Jul-08     165,446,119      251,548,401
1-Jan-09     180,583,781      250,621,283
1-Jul-09     204,715,862      269,844,671
1-Jan-10     224,351,731      293,297,300
1-Jul-10     260,729,882      309,582,209
1-Jan-11     299,787,522      326,511,305
1-Jul-11     317,551,998      368,001,819
1-Jan-12     320,554,935      382,753,035
1-Jul-12     319,854,770      382,797,552
1-Jan-13     338,984,080      382,275,315
1-Jul-13     363,921,049      408,392,742
1-Jan-14     364,440,390      457,493,646
1-Jul-14     364,604,289      449,257,439
1-Jan-15     378,673,307      445,436,420
1-Feb-15     382,279,514      445,557,925
siravan
QUOTE (tasp @ Aug 30 2008, 01:04 AM) *
So, by tweaking the throttle only, in the narrow approved range, with a minimum impact to our amazing flight of discovery to Vesta and Ceres, how far off the 'nominal track' can the probe get, and does this resulting 'lens' shaped area in the graph (assuming frame of reference w/ Dawn) take us near anything known and interesting ??


IIRC, the ion engines of Dawn are not exactly throttlable. In fact, they have such a low thrust that the main way to control them is to simply turn them on and off. Dawn has periods of "powered flight", separated by periods of cruise. I think each powered segment (days or weeks in a row) has essentially a fixed attitude. Then, then turn off the engine, determine the exact location, turn Dawn to a new attitude and turn on the engine again...

But, back to your main question. Essentially, Dawn does not have one fixed route from where it is to Vesta and in theory it possible to target it to some interesting object en route. However , there are two complications: the low thrust means that everything should be planned way ahead of time and Mars encounter. The exact time and location of the Mars encounter is still not determined, so there is still lots of uncertainty in the post encounter orbit. I believe that it is only after the encounter that Dawn will have a constrained orbit and the team can start planning for any possible extra targeting.
djellison
QUOTE (siravan @ Aug 30 2008, 04:19 PM) *
IIRC, the ion engines of Dawn are not exactly throttlable.


They are - dramatically.

http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_10_07_07.asp - lots of detail of the 112 different throttle levels they can use.
Hungry4info
@ tasp

They may not due that so as to conserve fuel. According to Wikipedia (which I realise may not be accurate), if the Vesta and Ceres investigations are successful, DAWN may go on to Pallas -- something I would really love to see.
vjkane
QUOTE (Hungry4info @ Aug 30 2008, 05:12 PM) *
They may not due that so as to conserve fuel. According to Wikipedia (which I realise may not be accurate), if the Vesta and Ceres investigations are successful, DAWN may go on to Pallas -- something I would really love to see.

Per the Dawn Q&A page: "Q: Will there be opportunities to visit other asteroids, either en route to Ceres or as part of an extended mission?
Answer: Unlikely, because there is greater return by spending more of our resources on Vesta and Ceres." http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/faqs.asp#

I personally have my doubts about this answer. If at the end of the *extended* Ceres investigations, there is still meaningful amounts of fuel left, I strongly suspect that Dawn will either 1) be sent to orbit another asteroid (a fairly expensive option because of mission ops) or 2) be sent to flyby one or more other bodies in similar solar orbits as Ceres (a less expensive option). NASA is really good at getting the most bang out of a working spacecraft. On the other hand, I don't think that anyone is working really hard on the question of what to do after Ceres -- that event is 7 years away and lots of things can happen to fuel levels, spacecraft and instrument health, and NASA budgets.
Greg Hullender
QUOTE (BrianJ @ Aug 29 2008, 01:15 PM) *
Hi, just wanted to point out that for earlier launch windows, the flyby was indeed "outbound", as per this image http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._as_of_2006.jpg

Also, just out of interest, here's a graphic comparing the orbit of Dawn to the orbit of Mars, before and after the (current trajectory) flyby.
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3606/dawn1copyzs2.gif


Well, I think the first graphic actually shows an inbound, not an outbound flyby. Did you mean to give a different link?

The second graphic is really cool, though. Does look like a pretty good bang for the buck from this flyby!

dmuller: On the question of the orbit always being circular, I didn't mean to imply that I thought that was the case with Dawn -- it's that it seemed to me that that would be the optimal way to use a low-thrust engine, and I'm curious why that's not the case in practice. Is it solely to make the Mars flyby work?

EDIT

Should have checked Vallado (Fundamentals of Astrodynamics and Applications) first. In Chapter 6.7 (Continuous Thrust Transfers) he works out that this type of transfer returns to circular only on integral numbers of orbits.

--Greg
tasp
Just wanted to comment how much fun it is to have a new 'toy' (ion drive) to 'play' with on the Dawn mission (I wasn't paying attention during Deep Space 1).

I think for folks brought up during the space age we all mostly have a 'feel' for Hohmann transfer orbits and their permutations, but 'learning the ropes' with an ion drive is new and exciting.

No shortage of ideas on things to try with it, and probably some good caution being exercised by the mission planners.

I really appreciate all the interest in this mission.

And of course, future applications of this drive technology seem to be promising all kinds of exciting possibilities. I'd love to wire up an ion drive to an RTG and see what we could get going . . .




BrianJ
QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Aug 30 2008, 06:01 PM) *
Well, I think the first graphic actually shows an inbound, not an outbound flyby. Did you mean to give a different link?
Erm...I don't think so. I would call it "outbound" since Dawn approaches the flyby from within the orbit of Mars (assuming the link I gave shows you the same as it shows me!) I only comment since I spent quite some time trying to figure out the flyby trajectory for the earlier June launch window (as an "interested layman" who finds these things fascinating smile.gif )

Best regards,
Brian
dmuller
QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Aug 31 2008, 04:01 AM) *
On the question of the orbit always being circular, I didn't mean to imply that I thought that was the case with Dawn -- it's that it seemed to me that that would be the optimal way to use a low-thrust engine, and I'm curious why that's not the case in practice. Is it solely to make the Mars flyby work?

Greg, if you have the Orbiter simulator (http://www.orbitersim.com) you can simulate this in Earth orbit. Get a scenario where your ship is docked to the ISS, set your Orbit display to PRJ ship and DST altitude (will look more or less like a circle), undock, hit "prograde", get your engines on the lowest thrust setting (i.e. press and hold "Ctrl" and then literally hit your "+" button on the Numpad as short as possible), speed up the simulation to 100x (unless you have a lot of time - but dont go over 100x), and watch the PeA (perigee altitude) and ApA (apogee altitude) increase ... everytime you nearly get a circle (circle: PeA = ApA), youl'll find the ApA running away, half an orbit later the PeA starts to catch up.
siravan
Regarding ion engines and circular orbits, one may make a qualitative non-mathematical argument why that is the case. We all know that for an elliptical orbit, firing engines at periapsis modifies the apoapsis (rising or dropping the apoapsis depending on the direction of the thrust), whereas firing the engines at apoapsis changes the periapsis. Now, for the case of a continuous low-thrust ion engine, it affects both apoapsis and periapsis. Let assume the case where both increase (as in Dawn). The spacecraft spends more time in the vicinity of the apoapsis that periapsis, as it is slower farther in its orbit from the center. Therefore the effect on periapsis is larger than the periapsis. The net effect is that with continuous thrusting, periapsis starts to catch up with apoapsis, i.e. the orbit becomes more circular.
dmuller
BTW, whilst getting the Dawn data from the Horizons system, I noticed the following description of the propulsion system. I particularly love the bold part, leaves every high-performance car lover drooling!

PROPULSION
Dawn uses 3 ion thrusters to reach Vesta once separated from the Delta II. It
will use the thrusters to spiral to lower altitudes on Vesta, leave Vesta,
cruise to Ceres, and spiral to a low altitude orbit at Ceres.

Weight : 8.9 kg each
Dimensions : 33 cm long, 41 cm diameter
Specific impulse : 3100 s
Thrust : 19-91 mN
Acceleration : 0-60 mph in 4 days
Operational time : 2000 days of thrust (entire mission)

dmuller
Since there is much talk about the Dawn cruise, I have finally uploaded the Dawn Realtime simulation onto my website at http://www.dmuller.net/dawn

That's been 4 posts to this thread in 24 hours ... I'll give it a break now for a while
Greg Hullender
QUOTE (BrianJ @ Aug 30 2008, 04:09 PM) *
Erm...I don't think so. I would call it "outbound" since Dawn approaches the flyby from within the orbit of Mars (assuming the link I gave shows you the same as it shows me!) I only comment since I spent quite some time trying to figure out the flyby trajectory for the earlier June launch window (as an "interested layman" who finds these things fascinating smile.gif )



I see it now. The graphic is a bit confusing because sometimes the dotted line is Dawn's trajectory and other times it's a planetary orbit. I was seeing the solid line as Mars' orbit -- but it's actually Dawn.

--Greg
Toma B
I still haven't found what I was looking for....can anybody help me?
Will there be any "non-targeted" flyby of any known asteroid or comet on the way to Vesta or Ceres?
Phil Stooke
Earlier discussions of this mission, before launch, suggested there could be several other flybys, but now they are not emphasized. Saving fuel is probably the big reason.

Phil
kwp
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 1 2008, 01:39 PM) *
Earlier discussions of this mission, before launch, suggested there could be several other flybys, but now they are not emphasized.


I asked a mission specialist a few weeks ago and was told that, sadly (my word, not hers), no en route flybys are planned.

-Kevin
Marz
QUOTE (kwp @ Sep 1 2008, 11:01 PM) *
I asked a mission specialist a few weeks ago and was told that, sadly (my word, not hers), no en route flybys are planned.

-Kevin


The Mars gravity assist is coming up in a few months (Feb 09). Are any observations or kodak-moments planned?

Only 2.8 more years until Vesta is reached! wheel.gif
djellison
Yes - an extensive campaign is planned for Dawn at the mars flyby

http://cosis.net/abstracts/EPSC2008/00442/...8-A-00442-1.pdf

One extra detail I discovered at Europlanet is a colour movie of a full mars day on the departure leg.

Doug
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