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spdf
JAXA wants to continue with Hayabusa 2. However there is/was a huge fight about the budget. Main problem was the budget for the launch vehicle. 2 months ago or so there was a report which said, that JAXA had to find another launch vehicle or the project gets cancelled. Now the Italian space agency played saviour and overed the VEGA. So finally we might see another Hayabusa in 2011.


It was mentioned here:
http://www.jspec.jaxa.jp/080110Final_IPEWG-ProgramBook.pdf
maschnitz
I was trying to hunt around for word on what happened with Hayabusa 2's budget crisis. I found a Japanese blogger, Shinya Matsuura, talking about a Q&A session, here (Google Translation to English).

I don't read Japanese, so I'd love to get a better translation of the last few paragraphs of his 8/23 entry than Google Translate's:

QUOTE
HAYABUSA two of the original plan was for a 2010 launch, and付KANAKAっbudget, and the conditions attached to the implementation of measures to raise the overseas launch, have been slow and loose.

I have heard that the 2014 launch talks. No suitable target objects and until now, the chances of that the next 2018 years. In this case, "Marco Polo (HAYABUSA Mark2)" because they wore the timing, "Hayabusa" will automatically disappear (8 / 26 Note: In other words, HAYABUSA and disappear, Japan's asteroid probe, 2003 The launch will be a generous 15 years that it empty. I think it's too bad deal for the success of his mission to you. and above all if the whole 15 years, the technology accumulated in the bush also, they will go and dissipation of planetary science researchers also raised. And of course, at present there is no guarantee the Marco Polo to be launched in 2018).

In other words the years 2013 and 2014 will be launched, also failed, even if the overseas launch of the procurement method, H-IIA launch that could.

Apparently, Marco Polo is considered a more likely project? And Hayabusa 2 may suffer from both budgetary and orbit issues and fall between the cracks?

Little help? rolleyes.gif
Holder of the Two Leashes
Not a great advertisement for translation software, I'll say that.

The gist I get out of it is that the blogger doesn't think that there would be any suitable target from 2013 through 2017, and that if you launched in 2018 then the current probe technology would be too outdated (better to start over with a new design), and you would lose the skill set from the original Hayabusa team by that time in any event.
maschnitz
So he's saying, basically - now or never on Hayabusa 2 (unless they happen to find a new target - say, with Pan-STARRS, or another survey.) And the budget stuff is STILL up in the air at the time of writing, despite the fact they said it'd be decided summer 2008.

So not good signs, overall, for Hayabusa 2.

Anyhow - excellent. Thank you very much for the help.
mps
Hayabusa 2 is currently planned to be launched with H-IIA in 2014 to asteroid 1999JU3.

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev...history_state0=

The original link: http://smatsu.air-nifty.com/lbyd/2009/07/jaxa2-7537.html
stevesliva
Fantastic. I love it when successful hardware gets launched again.
Paolo
In the latest issue of Astronomy & Astrophysics: Spitzer observations of spacecraft target 162173 (1999 JU3)
Paolo
The latest issue of Nature mentions Hayabusa 2 while discussing the return of Hayabusa http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100629/full/466016a.html
apparently, the project has been promised an increase of funds and could fly in 2014, returning samples in 2020.
Drkskywxlt
I saw a presentation today on Hayabusa 2 that was presented to NASA by JAXA. As already stated, they're looking at a C-type asteroid with a 2014-15 launch and an arrival in 2017-18. They are hoping to carry Minerva again.

They are also looking at Hayabusa Mark 2, but there were no details in the presentation about what a Mk 2 spacecraft would do in capability/science above the Mk 1. A Mk 2 is looking at a 2020-21 launch (if memory serves).
pandaneko
An article found in today's (15 July) Asahi Shimbun newspaper here says what follows.

JAXA put forward (yesterday) to the Space Activities Committe (or Commission) (SAC, anyway) their Hayabusa 2 proposal for feasibility study. They (SAC) will complete their technical feasibility study during August this year. Their conclusion will then be forwarded to the Ministry of Education, Science, Culture and Sports and the government's Space Development Strategy HQ.

Whether next year's budget allocation will reflect this is everybody's concern at the moment.

Unlike Hayabusa, Hayabusa 2 will be going to organic rich asteroid. After initial sampling on arrival Hayabusa 2 will release an object to the surface and create an artificial crator of 5,6 m in diameter.

Hayabusa 2 will then land in the crator for further sampling and return to the Earth.

Pandaneko
pandaneko
Oh, dear! I forgot to mention that Hayabusa 2 will go during the summer of 2014. This is in time for the approapriate orbital insertion to meeting up with the asteroid.

Pandaneko
pandaneko
I now know Hayabusa 2's target. It is 1999JU3.

Pandaneko
Hungry4info
Some diagrams and what-not.
pandaneko
There was an article in today's (11 August) Yomiuri newspaper about Hayabusa 2. She will create a crator with an explosive charge and land in it.

She will be using a few different types of sample recovery system. One of them is a sticky material. The paper did not mentioin what other methods are.

Pandaneko
pandaneko
My apologies, an explosive charge will be used to send out a metal chunck to the asteroid to create a crator. That makes me wonder about the potential damage to the mothership...

Pandaneko
pandaneko
Further apologies

Please do not blame me. As I look around for more info I get slightly different versions. The latest finding is that the projectile itself will have an explosive charge in it and it will create a crator, 4m in diam, and 80cm in depth.

Pandaneko
AndyG
A crater that size would mean blasting out over 10 tonnes of regolith (5.3 cubic metres @ 2 tonnes/m3) - and the idea is Hayabusa-2 would be near this to collect material? blink.gif

Andy
Drkskywxlt
My understanding is the spacecraft will be in a stand-off position during this phase and then approach later to sample/collect the (hopefully) pristine material inside the crater. I guess this supposed "sticky" collection device would operate in some sort of fly-through of the ejecta?
pandaneko
There was a repeat TV programme on Hayabusa and Hayabusa 2 on NHK today (13 August). I had not watched it before. What caught my attention most was the shape of the impacter as they called it and the sequence of crater making.

The impacter had a shape of a typical drum, but about one third of the way down from the top it had a disk sticking out all around the drum. The disk width was about one third of the drum diameter, I think.

Detonation sequence is something I do not trust my memory about. It was so brief, literally a few seconds. Now, there was a clear explosion on the asteroid surface, but, at that same moment the drum was still in the air, that is what I remember. I may be wrong, of course...

Pandaneko
pandaneko
What follows is from WIKI on Hayabusa 2. I had a look at WIKI in English and there was little. Proposed improvements are as follows.

1. Instead of a parabolic antenna an array antenna as used with Akatsuki will be used.

2. Pipe lining for chemical thrusters and reaction wheels will be improved.

3. Ion engine power will be increased from 10 micro N to 10 milli N.

4. Sampling sequence will be improved. For instance, a fish eye lens will monitor sampling process and optical monitoring of grains being retrieved.

5. Projectile's shape (sampler horn) will be changed from ball bearing shape to conical bullet shape at 90 degrees.

6. Impacter is 20 cm in diameter and weighs 10 kg. After seperation from Hayabusa 2 it will be deformed in shape by the explosive pressure to smush into the asteroid.

What surprised me was that Hayabusa 2 is very similar to Hayabusa, even with a sampler horn! I would have thought that they have given it up...

Pandaneko
nprev
Thanks, Pandaneko!

10^3 uprating--that's a dramatic improvement in engine thrust. I wonder if that indicates advancement in the technology, or just more confidence in pushing the existing design harder based on all the experience gained with Hayabusa 1?

Retaining the sampler horn schema is surprising as well. Don't see why they'd do that unless they feel very certain that they understand what went wrong on H1...has anything been published to indicate that? (I would be surprised if much of the post-flight engineering analysis has been translated into English, if it's even been publicly released in Japanese in the first place.)
pandaneko
I should imagine that JAXA itself cannot carry anything on Hayabusa 2 because of yet undecided budgetary confirmation. However, what follows appears to be the most official hideout for them.

http://b612.jspec.jaxa.jp/mission/e/index_e.html

Also, I now know that there will be two MINERVAs and 4 reaction wheels and that the stay period around the asteroid will be 1.5 years.

Pandaneko
spdf
http://www.planetaryprobe.eu/IPPW7/proceed...sion7B/p456.pdf

Hayabusa 2 might carry a DLR lander called MASCOT.
pandaneko
This news just in!

Hayabusa 2's budget request was fully approved by the government here!!!

It will go in 2014 as planned!!!

Pandaneko
nprev
GREAT news!!!!

P., I know that Emily will ask for a reference in the event that she decides to write about this (and it wouldn't surprise me if she did; Hayabusa 1 enjoyed considerable mass media attention by the normal standards of UMSF); do you have one handy in either Japanese or English?
pandaneko
Yes, though only in Japanese, from the web digest version of the Yomiuri newspaper. URL here.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/science/news/2010...-OYT1T01175.htm

There may be an article in English with the Daily Yomiuri, but this news will be reported widely by other media too from today on, I think.

Pandaneko
centsworth_II
Here's the English version:
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T101223003538.htm

"The government will give the science ministry the full amount--3 billion yen--it requested for development of the Hayabusa 2 space probe in the fiscal 2011 budget, sources said...."

pandaneko
I have got this feeling that we may shift this topic into Hayabusa 2 which already exsists. The reason is that Hayabusa 1's news will continue to come in, I think, in the next year and it might become confusing to talk about the two within the same stream...

Perhaps, I should have done just that myself in the first place, if I come to think about it...

Pandaneko
pandaneko
Another crazy thought... I was not sure where I should put this in and in the end chose this place. I am still talking about the need for engineering cameras.

Although, not directory relevant to interplanetatry missions, I tell you one episode about Hayabusa's capsule helicopter recovery. Heat shield and its inrared signnature and all that.

They did a rehearsal before hand, and what they used was a traditional Japanese feet warmer used in your bed filled with warm water. These things used to be made of corrugated metals, but increasingly these are now made of plastics, to hold warm water inside them.

I do not use one, as I use my electric bluncket, but there are still people, eldery people, who prefer these traditional warmers. Having said that, let me come to the main issue, engineering cameras.

With Hayabusa Minerva was lost (and only one image returned to earth, I think), and it must have been a very expensive system. However, prior to that deployment they sent a target marker down to the surface of the asteroid. That thing was remarkably primitive, with multi-rfelection surfaces, but what it boiled down to was another traditional thing, called ohajiki, for mainly small girls to play with.

Ohajiki is made of small beans and enclosed in a cloth (here on earth, that is) container to make it roughly round, about 5 cm in diam. With Hayabusa, two of them was used, as I remember, and the idea was that on landing they do not rebounce.

Now, if we have an engineering camara, with a fish eye lens attached to it, can we not forget about MINERVA kind of sophisticated and expensive monitoring devices? Whether angle setting is right or not should not matter as long as a fish eye lens is attached with the marker. It does not be firmly fixed, for cost saving, I think.

If we can arrange for that kind of markers, then we should be able to see what is coming down from above, and even what went wrong on landing, etc, etc. Of course, we should have another camera on board the probe itself.

Pandaneko



centsworth_II
QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jan 25 2011, 05:10 AM) *
... if we have an engineering camara, with a fish eye lens attached to it, can we not forget about MINERVA kind of sophisticated and expensive monitoring devices?

Of course, Minerva was not devised to monitor Hayabusa. Its purpose was to explore the surface of Itokawa. So we wouldn't want to do away with it. If I understand you, you are suggesting that the 'dumb' targets that Hayabusa dropped onto Itokawa could have had simple cameras to monitor Hayabusa's landing? Perhaps, but in addition to the camera, there would need to be a battery and transmitter along with the required electronics. More design, more testing, more weight.... unfortunately.

From http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10055257/ns/te..._science-space/

"In this photo, taken by the Hayabusa mothership, the object within the yellow circle is thought to be the MINERVA mini-robot, floating in space. Hayabusa's shadow can be seen on the surface of asteroid Itokawa, toward the top of the frame."
Click to view attachment

"This picture, snapped by the MINERVA mini-robot just after its deployment, shows a solar panel on the Hayabusa mothership."
Click to view attachment
Littlebit
As I recall, the problem with the Haybusa sampling horn is that the probe landed much sooner than anticipated. I would guess - this is only a guess- that the software engineers did not expect the timing of the landing to be off this much and did not have the necessary flags set for the sampling sequence to execute. It is unclear (to me) whether or not the probe left because of a timer, a maximum temperature was exceeded, or the probe was ordered to depart from earth.

In any case, since they have not changed the design of the sampling horn; it seems a likely conclusion that the failure to collect a pair of good samples was the result of a sequencing error rather than a failure of the sampling horn.
pandaneko
Thank you for clarification of MINERVA's role.

I now have this feeling that all future asteroid landers should have something like MINERVA. I am very ignorant about hardware costs, but they do not need propulsion systems, just being pushed out (or down), so can they not afford a few MINERVA like things, not just for surface observations, but to view what a lander looks like when it comes down and do whatever it is supposed to do on touch down?

I do want to see a lander coming down, why not? That should not be very expensive, should it?

Pandaneko
ZLD
Somewhere I read that the Hyabusa development costs were around US$150m and the NSSDC claims the spacecraft alone was around $100m of that. I would imagine Minerva was relatively cheap in comparison. However, the US had planned a lander to be on Hyabusa as well but pulled out due to costs. It always seems to come down to politics in the end. Also, all missions to comets and asteroids, with exception to Hyabusa, have been flybys so far, making it difficult for a lander to have much time to explore before it would lose radio contact.
djellison
QUOTE (ZLD @ Jan 27 2011, 10:47 AM) *
Also, all missions to comets and asteroids, with exception to Hyabusa, have been flybys so far,


No - NEAR rendezvoused with, orbited and then landed on Eros.
ZLD
Doh, forgot that one. Thanks for reminding me.
pandaneko
No, I cannot provide link information as all this was analogue on local newspapers here during the past 10 days to two weeks and I do not even remember which ones exactly Anyway, :

1. Hayabusa 2 is likely to go as planned in 2014, despite the recent budgetary cut due to the shortage of money in the wake of the earthquake. Actually, the amount of budget cut is very large in % terms, but this article contained in it a JAXA comment that they would somehow manage with their own internal resources being added to the current layout.

2. A German team is going to put a mini-lander with Hayabusa 2. I remember vaguely that there was a posting about this (with the same name given to it) long time ago. The problem as I remember was that the lander was not going to be given a spin at all.

P
pandaneko
What follows is found on today's (10 Feb. 2012) Asahi newspaper digital.

JAXA will complete the design of Hayabusa 2 components by mid March this year (2012) and start manufacturing them thereafter.

At about the same time they will start electrical connection tests of comms. and control systems by having them together and if possible complete the construction of the flight model by the autumn of 2013 at the earliest.

Hayabusa 2's development budget has been almost halved to about 30x 10 to the power of 8 yen within the 2012 budgetary plan and its launch is said to be tricky, but JAXA will not change its launch schedule and will aim for a launch in 2014.

According to the plan Hayabusa 2 will be launched on board H2A in 2014 and will arrive at the carbon rich 1999 JU3 in 2018 and will return to the Earth in 2020. (Why as much as 4 years, why not 6 months like Akatsuki!, P)

Hayabusa 2's probe cost is 162x 10 to the power of 8 yen and if we include the launch cost the total cost is about 300 x 10 to the power of 8 yen. Launch windows will be open for two weeks in the summer or winter of 2014. 2015 will be left as a backup launch year.

http://www.asahi.com/digital/nikkanko/NKK201202090016.html

P
Paolo
thanks for the update pandaneko!
cutting the budget while keeping the schedule will probably mean saving on tests and cutting corners... I have a bad feeling about this...
spdf
Somewhere else they said, the 2014 launch depends whether or not they can get the lost parts of the FY 2012 budget additionally in FY 2013.

Something else. 600 kilo is too soft for the H-IIA? For Planet-C this problem made the development of IKAROS possible. Hope they could come with something cool this time, too.
pandaneko
QUOTE (spdf @ Feb 11 2012, 04:34 AM) *
Somewhere else they said, the 2014 launch depends whether or not they can get the lost parts of the FY 2012 budget additionally in FY 2013.

Something else. 600 kilo is too soft for the H-IIA? For Planet-C this problem made the development of IKAROS possible. Hope they could come with something cool this time, too.


What follows is my translation of an article in one of the local newspapers here. I have no link details here, but there are other similar articles reported by other local newspapers. So, I suspect that it does not matter a lot even if I fail to give such details. Anyway, translation goes like this:




★10 million JPY private contribution in 10 dayys to JAXA. Ardent hope for Hayabusa 2.

JAXA started inviting private contributions from general public as from 2 April 2012.

Hayabusa's story gave a profound impression on people here, but there is not enough money yet for Hayabusa 2. That is why private contributions are looked at favourably. Contribution per person is staying at around JPY 10,000. JAXA started inviting contributions as from 2 April through internet.

JAXA also started introducing F-REG contribution payment service offered by Future Commerce, and also accepting credt cards and internet banking (PAY-EASY) services such as UC card, MASTER, VISA, and other credit cards with international credibility.


If you use any one of these services you do not need to your bank. Minimum contribution is JPY 1,000, and you can choose what you are contribution for, from:

1. Hayabusa 2
2. Manned spaceship/manned launcher
3. More use of Kibo modele on ISS
4. Space science use

JAXA had amassed a total of JPY 11316000 by 12 April ( almost double that by 24 April, P) and were saying thatn you very much.

Pandaneko
pandaneko
Nihon Keizai Shimbun here, a financial newspaper, reported (time stamp is 25 May 2012) that JAXA started producing Hayabusa 2 and main parts will be assembled by the end of this fiscal year for testing.

Pandaneko
pandaneko
QUOTE (pandaneko @ May 25 2012, 04:28 PM) *
Nihon Keizai Shimbun here, a financial newspaper, reported (time stamp is 25 May 2012) that JAXA started producing Hayabusa 2 and main parts will be assembled by the end of this fiscal year for testing.

Pandaneko


In addition to above posting there was a similar article in today (9 June)'s Asahi Shimbun newspaper. It more or less says the same thing such as Hayabusa 2's design work was completed by the end of April this year and manufacturing started immediately. One additional information it gave is that its ion engines are so designed as to reduce output power automatically by detecting early symptons of mulfunction.

Pandaneko
pandaneko
There is an interesting feature on JAXA Japanese web site. What follows is its translation.

<New challenegs>

We are currently considering a new device for Hayabusa 2 which was not carried by Hayabusa. It is a collision device. It will be seperated from Hayabusa 2 above 1993 JU3 and when the mothersdhip hides behind the asreroid it will explode in mid air. Then, approx. 2kg collision mass will collide with the asteroid surface and create a crater of approx. a few meters insize.

After that, collection and sampling of the newly disclosed surface will be attempted. (end of translation)

I would have thought that crater making can be best and least problematically achieved by an explosive device, somehow gently placed on the asteroid surface. That would have been space mining, but this is just a collision process!

P

tolis
UNNECESSARY QUOTING REMOVED - ADMIN

Paraphrasing David Niven in "The Guns of Navarone": 'there is always a way to set off explosives. The trick is not to be around when they do.'
Blue Sky
Here is a short article from the English edition of Asahi Shimbun, dated June 9:
Engineers seek smoother space journey for Hayabusa 2
NEC is the prime contractor again.

It seems to me the trouble with "hiding behind" the asteroid when the explosion goes off is that a lot of debris will be floating about for a while.
Explorer1
Why would it? The asteroid's gravity is too negligible to hold onto anything and without air resistance, all the particles would fly away at whatever speed the explosion flung them.
pandaneko
QUOTE (Explorer1 @ Jun 29 2012, 09:51 AM) *
Why would it? The asteroid's gravity is too negligible to hold onto anything and without air resistance, all the particles would fly away at whatever speed the explosion flung them.


I am not exactly sure what they have in mind. Explosion is isotopic, and to get a maximum directionality push you need an infinite mass sitting behind the explosion, resembling rather like a Chinese frying pan. If you want more then you are talking about a cannon, I think. If you reverse the whole setup you will then get a missile.

In either case they do talk about explosions. So, what are they talking about?

P
Explorer1
Seems to me like the goal is both replicating Deep Impact but on an inert body instead of out-gassing comet. This includes staying in the vicinity rather than just a flyby, so as to measure the velocity change easier.
pandaneko
QUOTE (Explorer1 @ Jul 3 2012, 05:54 AM) *
Seems to me like the goal is both replicating Deep Impact but on an inert body instead of out-gassing comet. This includes staying in the vicinity rather than just a flyby, so as to measure the velocity change easier.


I realise that I have been putting all this very badly indeed.

First of all, there is no mistake in my translation about "explosion". They did say "explosion" in mid space.

My question/comment is this.

Mid space explosion cannot possibly direct a collidinng mass into the right direction. Neither will it be able to give it a sufficient kinetic energy to dig a hole in the asteroid.

So, what kind of explosion are they talking about? Perhaps, the collidinng mass has an explosive charge to detonate even if incorrectly pointed (as long as it does get tothe asteroid surface?).

P
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