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GravityWaves
Jules Verne ATV Launch Approaching
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/...80211120639.htm
nprev
Yeah, I'm kind of pumped about it! smile.gif Just out of curiosity, is ESA considering follow-on versions that might conceivably be crew-rated? (Guess that the Ariane V would also have to achieve this as well).
PhilCo126
Didn't hear (yet) about any crew-rated versions wink.gif
http://www.esa.int/esaMI/ATV/ESAE021VMOC_0.html
nprev
You know somebody's gotta be thinking about it, though. Hopefully after they get a few flights under their belt, they'll press on with the idea.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the fact that the ISS will have to rely solely on Soyuz for a substantial period until Orion is available (I just hate single-point vulnerabilities, is all). Jules Verne is clearly much closer to becoming a crew-rated vehicle, plus I'd love to see ESA take the plunge into manned spaceflight.
Adam
I remember reading somewhere that ESA had considered it but decided to try to cooperate with the russians instead of building a spacecraft of their own. I'm not sure where I read it though, was quite some time ago so I could be wrong.
nprev
I'm betting that they want to establish a sound performance record with the unmanned version before pressing on with any other applications, which would be a very prudent, even conservative developmental strategy. IMHO, it's damn near irresistable to possess a pressurized space vehicle and not consider going all the way...

One fly in the ointment might be the level of effort needed to man-rate Ariane. IIRC, Jim from NSF.com stated awhile back that not even the Shuttle has ever truly achieved this, being allowed to fly on a series of engineering waivers. All that said, though, I'm sure that different agencies have different procedures & criteria.
jamescanvin
QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 29 2008, 04:18 PM) *
One fly in the ointment might be the level of effort needed to man-rate Ariane.


IIRC Ariane 5 was initially was developed as a man-rated launch system to carry Hermes. So if you we ever going to man rate an existing rocket, Ariane 5 is probably easier than most.
ustrax
QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 28 2008, 08:02 PM) *
Yeah, I'm kind of pumped about it! smile.gif Just out of curiosity, is ESA considering follow-on versions that might conceivably be crew-rated? (Guess that the Ariane V would also have to achieve this as well).


Crew-rated maybe not so soon but, according to John Ellwood, the developed technology for the automatic rendezvous and docking techniques, is an important contribute for a future sample return mission from Mars... smile.gif
nprev
Nice interview, Rui! smile.gif

Hmm...I dunno...Mr. Elwood sure used the word "manned" a lot, and pointed out that JV was designed to two-fault tolerance specs...definitely getting a vibe, here... wink.gif
ustrax
QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 29 2008, 05:35 PM) *
Nice interview, Rui! smile.gif

Hmm...I dunno...Mr. Elwood sure used the word "manned" a lot, and pointed out that JV was designed to two-fault tolerance specs...definitely getting a vibe, here... wink.gif


Not an interview Nicholas, Ellwood made all the work... wink.gif
Aren't you reading what you want to read? tongue.gif
But I too trust vibes...this will be faster than we think... biggrin.gif
nprev
QUOTE (ustrax @ Feb 29 2008, 09:53 AM) *
Not an interview Nicholas, Ellwood made all the work... wink.gif
Aren't you reading what you want to read? tongue.gif


Nice work nonetheless, and, yeah... smile.gif ...in addition to vibes, I also believe in buzz!
PhilCo126
Just imagine an escape tower ontop of such an ATV wink.gif
nprev
It's a bit flat, isn't it? Gotta imagine that there's some sort of an aerodynamic front fairing, though; you could put a tower on easy enough.

What might be a bit more difficult is putting a heat shield on the reentry module (and beefing up the front end for reentry stress as well, probably also the ACS for deorbiting with extra mass unless you want to add an independent retro system).
dvandorn
JV strikes me as somewhat overengineered for a disposable one-flight vehicle, and somewhat underengineered for a prototype of a recoverable manned spacecraft.

It's a good foundation for the development of a manned vehicle -- but there are quite a few changes you'd want to make before adding a crew, I think.

-the other Doug
ustrax
QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 29 2008, 06:07 PM) *
Nice work nonetheless, and, yeah... smile.gif ...in addition to vibes, I also believe in buzz!


You want buzz?...
Let me give you the closing words of Alain Thirkettle, ESA ISS Programme Manager, in his testimony to spacEurope, to be published Monday...:
"...the necessary capabilities for elements of future human exploration transportation and living/working accommodation are available to Europe, and thus both ATV and Columbus are a crucial building blocks for the future plans of the Agency."

What are these future plans Nicholas?... smile.gif

(did you get my e-mail?...)

EDITED: Launch has been delayed 24 hours due to potential problem identified with the fitting of the grounding straps located in the separation system.
ustrax
I find it the F word unbelievable that there is no debate, here, at TPS, around something as important as the Jules Verne ATV launch...Doug...you payed for it...for a vehicle that will make its way towards the Moon and Mars...ODD, just ODD... rolleyes.gif
Don't doubt it...this is just the beggining...the beggining of wha we are all waiting for...is it for the fact that it is an European effort?
Tomorrow, at 4AM a new ground will be conquered... smile.gif
A whole new range of opportunities will be set...
ODD man...just ODD...
djellison
QUOTE (ustrax @ Mar 8 2008, 08:15 PM) *
Doug...you payed for it.


Actually - the UK isn't involved in ESA's ISS program, so I didn't. There's nothing exceptional in Alan's words - it's no secret that ESA would like a manned program of its own. ATV could have feed-forward technologies for that. But can we actually afford a manned program right now? No. Is there one formally proposed? No. Is Manned spaceflight where I think ESA should be going? Without a radical increase in funding - no.


What happened to ESA's involvement in Klipper? Nothing What happened to Hermes? Nothing. Has any follow on program using ATV development been formerly announced? No. Consider me unimpressed by a set of technologies that might, if the political will is there (which it isn't), become a building block of a vehicle that may or may not ever get made by a space agency that can't really afford it.

I don't see much to get excited about over and above what the ATV is actually going to do which is - whilst not a unique ability, is a new ability to ESA. It's a fat Progress launch. That's all.

The ATV isn't going to the Moon or Mars. It's going to the ISS. Maybe - in the future, 15, 20 years from now, a vehicle that shares some technology with ATV might, just maybe, take astronauts into space in a European vehicle. But is that something to be excited about now? Any ESA vision regarding the Moon or Mars will have to be closely tied to the VSE, and with the VSE almost certain to undergo a considerable ammount of remodelling post-November, it's enormously premature to assume ESA's going to Mars or the Moon. Will it happen, eventually - hopefully. Should we be excited about it now? No - because there isn't a single Euro comitted to such a program. The first ATV doesn't mark any sort of milestone on the way to a European Mars mission.

No Euros, no Eureka.

Doug
ilbasso
Just imagining what a ride on the ATV would be like - according to the ESA site, launch to orbit in 3 minutes. It takes the Shuttle 8 minutes to get to orbit. The ride on the ATV would pull even more G's than the Gemini.
GravityWaves
An Ariane 5 ES has launched (4:03am UTC) with the Automated Transfer Vehicle (ATV) resupply spacecraft, from Europe's Spaceport in French Guiana. The "Jules Verne" will park in orbit until after shuttle Endeavour departs ATV's eventual destination - the ISS.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5375
dvandorn
Pretty launch, but very, very short time of tracking due to low clouds.

Sounds like everything is working fine, though.

-the other Doug
dilo
Terrific shockwave launch in the nasaspaceflight.com video.
From left window, I measured the following realtime data (in red):
Click to view attachment
calculated speed/acceleration (in black) shows some incongruency, perhaps the real asset angle wasn't 0... unsure.gif

EDIT: the suspect was confirmed by looking to the full-lenght video at space-multimedia, where "S" still equal to 0deg even after SRB separation and fairing DDO. Can someone explain the meaning of this parameter? (speakers talks about angle between launch site and vehicle...)
DEChengst
The launch footage is now up for grabs via FTP.

hostname: esa.contentcoders.com
username: esa
password: ftp4esa
filename: 2008-03-09_lanch_editversion.mpg (250 MB)

Who sayed ESA is bad at PR ? I think they're just good at hiding it wink.gif
OWW
Trouble.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5375

Ariane 5 ES launches with ATV - suffers early fault on orbit

Teams are evaluating a problem with ATV's Propulsion Drive Electronics (PDE) 2.
The system in question controls 25 percent of the vehicle's thrusters, and would require extra prop usages for vehicle control should recovery fail.
The fault is believed to related to a mismatch in ox/fuel flow rates, with a second failure sending the ATV in survival mode.
All burns have been canceled until further notice.
nprev
Well, this is what first flights are all about...wring-out time. Doesn't sound like a show-stopper, though. Go, Jules Verne!!! smile.gif

EDIT: Just saw the launch video... blink.gif ...WOW!!! The Ariane V is one hell of a powerful beast, all right...
edstrick
(Beat on me if needed since I' making up numbers... does anybody have the REAL ones?)

There are two problems with the Jules Verne ATV.
1.) It carres 3 times what a Progress can carry, for 10 times the cost.

2.) It's a space tug, carrying a payload cannister. it's an <expletive deleted> DISPOSABLE space tug.

What would it be able to do if it were a REAL space tug?.... if an Ariane 5 launched a "slightly smart" Cargo cannister, the cannister would mass as much as the ATV, have attitude control and enough solar panels <non-deployable.... keep it cheap> to loiter in it's orbit and wait for the tug.. The tug would detach from the ISS and rendezvous with the cannister and retrieve it, rendezvousing with the station and docking the cannister to the station. The tug would replenish it's propulsion system from the cannister through it's docked connection to the other end of the cannister (cannister would have one male, one female docking port.) At end of mission, Tug would detach cannister and put it into an orbit from which the "slightly smart" cannister would do an orientation maneuver and a de-orbit burn with a small <solid?> rocket and re-enter. Tug would re-rendezvous with station and await it's next mission.

It's a good first step, but ESA needs to take the second step.
remcook
trouble is over smile.gif
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMJE7M5NDF_index_0.html
nprev
Ed, I hope that JV Mark I is also just the first step. Presumably there will be a series of evolutes as the program matures and new applications become evident (and more feasible).
climber
Here we go : http://www.spaceflightnow.com/ariane/v181/...29demoday1.html
ilbasso
Judging from the state of the ISS construction in the illustration on that site, the ATV has also traveled back in time several years as it approached the ISS. rolleyes.gif
nprev
JV's got one hell of an autopilot, but I don't think it's that good! tongue.gif

Excellent news, though; just minor parameter tweaking, which is inevitable, esp. on a first flight.
Stu
NASA TV currently showing coverage of the approach of Jules Verne to ISS... pretty pictures... smile.gif

Click to view attachment
Stu
Some pretty impressive formation flying going on up there right now...

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

imipak
QUOTE (Stu @ Mar 31 2008, 04:28 PM) *
Some pretty impressive formation flying going on up there right now...


Great screengrabs Stu, thanks! I'm kicking myself, I'd made a mental note to sneak a look from work this afternoon.
Stu
You're welcome. But even better than that, I just saw the real thing! Clear sky tonight here in Kendal, and the two appeared at 9.11 as predicted, Jules Verne in the lead, around magnitude 2 (and quite red, I thought...) followed a few seconds behind by a blazing bright ISS, almost mag -2 I made it, and phosphorous blue-white in binocs. Very, very strange but oddly moving to see those two spacecraft sailing across the sky mere hours after watching them on my screen...
MahFL
We saw them two times last week.
imipak
QUOTE (Stu @ Mar 31 2008, 08:18 PM) *
You're welcome. But even better than that, I just saw the real thing!

Well it's a funny old world; after posting last night, I pulled up NASA TV on the off-chance - I was under the impression ATV action would be over by 6pm - but I was just in time to see the nicely dramatic rehearsed "emergency escape" manúuvre. And now you've reminded me that the last time I checked Heavens Above, a week or so ago, there were no passes visible to me for the next few days; but I just checked again, and - lo!

Date Mag Start
1 Apr -2.4 21:31:21...

(Yes please! ) So that's two more "thanks" to you. Much obliged Stu!

jamescanvin
QUOTE (ilbasso @ Mar 31 2008, 12:09 AM) *
Judging from the state of the ISS construction in the illustration on that site, the ATV has also traveled back in time several years as it approached the ISS. rolleyes.gif


Looking at the docking animation on the ATV blog it looks like today's docking will require a time travel manoeuvre into the future (post S6) rolleyes.gif
Stu
11m to go...

Click to view attachment
djellison
Docking coming up in just a few seconds. 7.5 m and closing at 6cm/sec
djellison
Like

A

Glove
Stu
BEAUTIFUL docking... she may not be the prettiest spacecraft ever built, but she flew straight and true...

Click to view attachment
ilbasso
Nice docking. I started watching when the ATV and ISS were still in night. From the Zvezda docking port camera, you could only see the docking target and three lights (one flashing) on the ATV, so you had no idea of the scale or distance. My brain was telling me that the two lights to the sides of the docking target were on the perimeter of the vehicle [they were in fact on the front, but you couldn't tell in the pitch black]. Then suddenly the sun came up, and instantly the ATV loomed MUCH larger in the frame than I thought it would be. It was like watching a Klingon warship uncloak!
nprev
Congratulations to ESA and the Jules Verne team!!! smile.gif "This could be the start of something big"... wink.gif
MahFL
QUOTE (Stu @ Apr 3 2008, 03:02 PM) *
BEAUTIFUL docking... she may not be the prettiest spacecraft ever built, but she flew straight and true...


I think the ATV looks wonderfull, like something out of Star Wars.
nprev
Yeah, really...she looks pretty sweet to me, workin' that X-wing fighter look! smile.gif
PDP8E
ESA as plans to convert the Jules Verne class cargo ships into a manned craft

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7398517.stm
djellison
Of course, it'll be November till ESA decides if they want to pay for it.
PDP8E
More on the MANNED version of the ATV....(including pix of the cockpit)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7419793.stm

nprev
Right on!!! smile.gif (I knew it would happen, I knew it!)
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