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djellison
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/guest/...23_phoenix.html

Some of those areas have NO features at all!! Even with a descent camera - I wonder how easy localisation will be smile.gif

Actually - given MRO's huge swath width and resolution, easy biggrin.gif

Doug
remcook
the main thing is to analyse some sub-surface ices right?
MPL was a while ago and I can't remember the details anymore...
tedstryk
In a way I hope it does land in a pretty blank place. After the MERs, I would hate to land with something interesting just poking out from behind a hill or just out of reach of the arm. I think for those of us obsessed with imagery, this mission will get frustrating once the initial pan is taken, although images of its activities, different times of day, and frosts it might or might not spot (and clouds, now that I think of it) might mitigate this somewhat.

Ted
YesRushGen
Yeah. We're so accustomed now to actually moving around. I propose that Phoenix be the LAST static lander mission.

Well, it's a long shot, but maybe the decent rockets will have enough gas left in them to take a small hop to a not-so-far-away spot. laugh.gif (One of the Lunar Surveyors did that - although only a few meters away)
djellison
Oh - static landers still have their place - but I think Phoenix may be the last 'primary' martian mission without wheels.

i.e. Netlander or a similar mission would be hugely worth while - you dont HAVE to have wheels to do good science, and they cost you a LOT of volume, mass, power, and money smile.gif

Doug
tedstryk
Well, for some kind of missions, such as setting up meteorological stations and seisometry, static is best. But for other types, I hope we go mobile (or the Pathfinder approach - a small lander with a rover).
YesRushGen
Yeah, that is true. It would be way neat to have many many small meteorology landers scattered about the planet.
Sunspot
QUOTE (remcook @ Dec 20 2004, 02:34 PM)
the main thing is to analyse some sub-surface ices right?
MPL was a while ago and I can't remember the details anymore...

No ones 100% sure what went wrong as there was no data sent back during decent and landing...but the most likely reason for the failure was the premature shutdown of the decent thrusters just a few hundred feet above the surface. Software and sensors designed to detect the landing legs touching down on the surface may have been fooled by the landing legs being deployed during the decent.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MarsPolarLander


By the way here's the website for Phoenix: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/

Launch: August, 2007
Arrival: May 25, 2008
Science Instruments: Mars Descent Imager, Stereo Imager, Robot Arm and Camera, Thermal Evolved Gas Analyzer, Microscopy Electrochemistry & Conductivity Analyzer, Meteorology Suite
djellison
This is the 'other' Phoenix website - to be honest, neither are any good smile.gif

http://planetary.chem.tufts.edu/Phoenix/

A real pity that Marie Curie got dropped from the '01 payload - I hope she finds a good home somewhere smile.gif

Yup - the lander pad sensor thing was the most popular reason for the '98 failure - however - there are suggestions that fuel sloshing might have had something to do with it as well wink.gif

doug
OWW
QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 20 2004, 04:52 PM)
Yup - the lander pad sensor thing was the most popular reason for the '98 failure - however - there are suggestions that fuel sloshing might have had something to do with it as well wink.gif

I always thought it was strange that everybody ignored the fact that BOTH Deep Space-2 probes were never heard from as well!!!
It may well be that the failures of MPL and DS2 had different causes, but everytime I read about the crash I have this nagging feeling that the mission may have been lost way sooner when MPL and DS2 were still bolted together.

I watched the landing live at the time ( sad.gif ) and I remember that just before landing the entire Cruise stage/MPL/DS2 combo had to turn away from earth to the landing orientation which caused the loss of comm. Maybe the turn was not complete, or it didn't stop turning causing a tumble...

I just don't like the idea of three different spacecraft all failing at the same time for three different reasons. rolleyes.gif
djellison
Ditto - my initial reaction was "well - surely the cruise stage didnt seperate properly or something?" - but actually- the DS2 probes would have still been released as they deployed just before the main spacecraft.

What amased me is to see how amazingly easy it was to spot the MER's from MOC, yet nothing of MSL, the DS2 probes, or B2 sad.gif

Doug
Pando
I think it was brilliant to add the low-level comms to the MER landers; it just sent simple beeps but it was something to watch during the entire landing process. In case there is failure a lot can be learned from a simple beep...
OWW
QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 20 2004, 08:05 PM)
Ditto - my initial reaction was "well - surely the cruise stage didnt seperate properly or something?" - but actually- the DS2 probes would have still been released as they deployed just before the main spacecraft.

What amased me is to see how amazingly easy it was to spot the MER's from MOC, yet nothing of MSL, the DS2 probes, or B2 sad.gif

But what if the entire stack was tumbling or in a wrong orientation BEFORE anything separated? Would the DS2 probes put themselves in a correct orientation once they encountered the Martian atmosphere?

The DS2 probes were quite small and designed to go underground, so I don't think it's strange MGS didn't spot them. MGS was not equiped with a temporal-camera, so imaging MSL was not an option biggrin.gif .
YesRushGen
QUOTE (Pando @ Dec 20 2004, 08:08 PM)
I think it was brilliant to add the low-level comms to the MER landers; it just sent simple beeps but it was something to watch during the entire landing process. In case there is failure a lot can be learned from a simple beep...

Absolutely. I sincerely hope that Phoenix has been updated to provide some low level comms like MER had and MPL didn't. Anyone seen any info on this?
djellison
The DS2 probes were designed to re-enter totally unguided from any tumble / orientation

I loved those little guys - they were superb. Such a pity they didnt work.

I think EDL tones are almost a requirement for a Mars Scout mission arnt they? They're not a new thing - MPF had them in 97 smile.gif

Doug
OWW
Will MGS and Odyssey still be operational in 2008? If MRO fails Phoenix has no other option than to communicate with the old MGS. Is it designed to do this?
djellison
Well - MGS is currently 8 years 1 month old and working just about fine, less the MOLA trigger - Odyssey currently 3 years 8 months old and working fine minus the MARIE instrument.

Come Mid 2008 - MGS would be 11 years 7 months old, Odyssey 7 years 4 months old

So - when Phoenix is on-form, Odyssey will be younger than MGS is now smile.gif And - to be honnest - I'm almost 100% sure that Odyssey will be FINE then, and MGS - well - it's a bit 50/50 - no reason why not in priciple, but batteries may be dead by then, Gyros, hydrazine etc etc - so I wouldnt put money on it - but it's Odyssey that's relayed the HUGE percentage of MER data - MGS hasnt relayed MER data for months - and I'd imagine that Phoenix will have similar bandwidth requirements as a single MER - so Odyssey alone could manage it - and assuming MRO arrives OK- there'll be plenty of assets available - and there's always DTE smile.gif

Doug
BruceMoomaw
Some communications during descent -- as well as a post-landing DTE link -- was regarded as a mandatory addition to the 2001 Lander even when they were still considering flying it in 2001 after the MPL failure. Phoenix definitely has it. (Phoenix also has retained the precision landing system -- involving active aerodynamic control during entry -- that was always planned for the 2001 Lander; but the landing obstacle detection and avoidance system that was originally supposed to be added to it has been rejected now as too power-consuming to be worthwhile for this mission. Thus the first Mars lander to feature active obstacle avoidance will be MSL two years later.)
Phil Stooke
Phoenix landing site: in case people didn't see it, a very interesting discussion with maps was presented at the Mars Express conference earlier this year:


http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/do...fobjectid=36770

I've had students looking at the area - it's not as bland as some early messages in this thread suggested, but some earler images were taken under very hazy conditions.

Phil
ljk4-1
Paper: astro-ph/0507317
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:40:53 GMT (888kb)

Title: Radiative Habitable Zones in Martian Polar Environments

Authors: C. Cordoba-Jabonero, M.-P. Zorzano, F. Selsis, M. R. Patel and C. S.
Cockell

Comments: 44 pages, 8 figures
Report-no: CAB-lcasat/04057
Journal-ref: Icarus 175 (2005) 360-371
DOI: 10.1016/j.icarus.2004.12.009

The biologically damaging solar ultraviolet (UV) radiation (quantified by the
DNA-weighted dose) reaches the Martian surface in extremely high levels.
Searching for potentially habitable UV-protected environments on Mars, we
considered the polar ice caps that consist of a seasonally varying CO2 ice
cover and a permanent H2O ice layer. It was found that, though the CO2 ice is
insufficient by itself to screen the UV radiation, at 1 m depth within the
perennial H2O ice the DNA-weighted dose is reduced to terrestrial levels. This
depth depends strongly on the optical properties ofthe H2O ice layers (for
instance snow-lile layes). The Earth-like DNA-weighted dose and
Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) requirements were used to define the
upper and lower limits of the nortern and southern polar radiative habitable
zone (RHZ) for which a temporal and spatial mapping was performed. Based on
these studies we conclude that phtosynthetic life might be possible within the
ice layers of the polar regions. The thickness varies along each Martian polar
spring and summer between 1.5 m and 2.4 m for H2= ice-like layers, and a few
centimeters for snow-like covers. These Martian Earth-like radiative habitable
environments may be primary targets for future Martian astrobiological
missions. Special attention should be paid to planetary protection, since the
polar RHZ may also be subject to terrestrial contamination by probes.

\\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0507317 , 888kb)
ustrax
QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 20 2004, 02:13 PM)
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/guest/...23_phoenix.html

Some of those areas have NO features at all!! Even with a descent camera - I wonder how easy localisation will be smile.gif

Actually - given MRO's huge swath width and resolution, easy biggrin.gif

Doug
*


Updating...

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/guest/...02_phoenix.html
djellison
What I thought was fairly mundane terrain is looking a little more interesting...

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/guest/.../S02-01184m.gif

Look at all the boulders at top left - it's a 50cm CPROTO image.

Doug
ustrax
QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 27 2005, 05:07 PM)
What I thought was fairly mundane terrain is looking a little more interesting...

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/guest/.../S02-01184m.gif

Look at all the boulders at top left - it's a 50cm CPROTO image.

Doug
*



You're right Doug, I have sympathized with this particular place...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/ustrax/Phoenix1.jpg

Original:
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/guest/.../S02-00184d.gif

Can we make requests?... rolleyes.gif
Toma B
Guys how about somebody makes a scaled down version of that enormous image? sad.gif
Doug?, Ustrax?
ustrax
QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 27 2005, 05:31 PM)
Guys how about somebody makes a scaled down version of that enormous image? sad.gif
Doug?, Ustrax?
*


I can't access Doug's link...
sad.gif
um3k
QUOTE (Toma B @ Dec 27 2005, 12:31 PM)
Guys how about somebody makes a scaled down version of that enormous image? sad.gif
Doug?, Ustrax?
*

Here:
Click to view attachment
mcaplinger
QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 23 2004, 07:44 PM)
Some communications during descent -- as well as a post-landing DTE link -- was regarded as a mandatory addition to the 2001 Lander even when they were still considering flying it in 2001 after the MPL failure.  Phoenix definitely has it. 
*


I'm not so sure they did retain the post-landing DTE capability on PHX except for EDL tones. The latest renderings of the lander on the PHX web site don't show a steerable DTE antenna, though earlier ones did. I really haven't kept track of how this ended up.

I believe that for PHX relay MRO is the prime and Odyssey is the backup. It might be possible to send data through MGS in a pinch, but as with MER, they prefer not to do that since it's lower rate and incurs some loss because of the way the MGS relay works (it doesn't have handshaking like the later designs.)
Steve G
QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Dec 27 2005, 11:37 AM)
I'm not so sure they did retain the post-landing DTE capability on PHX except for EDL tones.  The latest renderings of the lander on the PHX web site don't show a steerable DTE antenna, though earlier ones did.  I really haven't kept track of how this ended up.

I believe that for PHX relay MRO is the prime and Odyssey is the backup.  It might be possible to send data through MGS in a pinch, but as with MER, they prefer not to do that since it's lower rate and incurs some loss because of the way the MGS relay works (it doesn't have handshaking like the later designs.)
*


I'm looking forward to see the science the mission will bring us. It will be a lot more interesting than the pictures. The MERs have spoiled us with the pretty postcards, but that's not why PHX is going to Mars. The science is going to be great.
RNeuhaus
QUOTE (Steve G @ Dec 31 2005, 04:07 PM)
The MERs have spoiled us with the pretty postcards, but that's not why PHX is going to Mars.
*

We have not only received post cards but also graphs about the minerology content of some interesting stones, Thermal analysis of Martian atmosphere and surface. PHX have another kind of scientific instruments that will complement to MER starting with its drilling and sampling data for post-analysis.

It is still a long time to learn news from PHX since it will land on Mars by the first months of the year 2008...it is 2 years from now.

Rodolfo
gndonald
QUOTE (Steve G @ Jan 1 2006, 05:07 AM)
I'm looking forward to see the science the mission will bring us.  It will be a lot more interesting than the pictures. The MERs have spoiled us with the pretty postcards, but that's not why PHX is going to Mars.  The science is going to be great.
*


Quite right, the science definitely be worth it, all of the previous surface level weather measurement has been done at the lower latitudes (47 deg N for Viking 1/2, 19 deg N for Pathfinder), thus a look at the high altitude weather patterns should hopefully provide a contrast to them.

I just find it a pity that NASA can't get funding to send a second lander to the South Polar region in the same year (even of the Pathfinder variety).
ljk4-1
QUOTE (gndonald @ Jan 15 2006, 11:06 PM)
Quite right, the science definitely be worth it, all of the previous surface level weather measurement has been done at the lower latitudes (47 deg N for Viking 1/2, 19 deg N for Pathfinder), thus a look at the high altitude weather patterns should hopefully provide a contrast to them.

I just find it a pity that NASA can't get funding to send a second lander to the South Polar region in the same year (even of the Pathfinder variety).
*


This is why NASA should be working on smaller probes that can be sent in bunches to numerous places all over a target world. With this kind of probe,
losing a few would not be the end of the entire mission.
gndonald
QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 17 2006, 12:02 AM)
This is why NASA should be working on smaller probes that can be sent in bunches to numerous places all over a target world.  With this kind of probe,
losing a few would not be the end of the entire mission.
*


The sad thing, is that this is what NASA had with the basic 'Pathfinder' lander, something that could carry out a fair amount of science, which would have been easier to 'mass produce' than the rovers or the upcoming Phoenix lander.

A good strategy would have been to do a 'High/Low' launch with each launch window, say one MRO/Phoenix style 'high complexity' mission and one or more Pathfinder 'low complexity' mission(s).

The actual Pathfinder mission lasted for 83 sols, which would nicely complement the 'main missions' reading during the initial phases.

The best instrument set would probably be a basic camera, Weather sensor and either a seismonitor or radiation detector.

Apologies for going a little off topic, but this is something I feel strongly about.
ustrax
I've just received an answer from Doug Lombardi, the Education and Public Outreach Manager for the PML mission regarding the discussion about the landing site choice and he told me that the team is working very hard on the selection. By now the proposed region for is between 65 and 72 deg N and 120 and 140 deg E, making a quick search that would put us on the vicinity of Panchaia Rupes...
By looking into the maps it looks like a quite plain area with some large craters here and there with some possible ice on it...
What might be their intention? Landing on one of this or go for a safer touchdown?
climber
[quote name='ustrax' date='Jun 8 2006, 12:08 PM' post='57527']
What might be their intention? Landing on one of this or go for a safer touchdown?


I have little doubts on this. "If you don't land safely, you've got nothing," said Matt Golombek
on a Space.com article I posted yesterday on MSL's topic.
ustrax
Maybe it's better to start looking at this place...Maybe it will become familiar in the days to come...:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/ustr...chaiaRupes1.jpg

smile.gif
climber
[quote name='ustrax' date='Jun 8 2006, 12:33 PM' post='57533']
Maybe it's better to start looking at this place...Maybe it will become familiar in the days to come...:


Can we already put an elipse ? By the way, I guess that we'll have the same elipse size as Mer's ?
MSL's will be a lot smaller refering to the same source as above
ustrax
'Can we already put an elipse ?'

I don't think so... It is the current proposed landing site, not the definitive one...
RNeuhaus
The MSL landing ellipse would be much smaller than MER's one. I think that the longest (major axis) would be around 10 20 km versus 50 km of MERs.

Rodolfo
climber
[quote name='RNeuhaus' date='Jun 9 2006, 04:09 AM' post='57679']
The MSL landing ellipse would be much smaller than MER's one. I think that the longest (major axis) would be around 10 km versus 50 km of MERs.
Rodolfo


Yep, but as Phoenix will use basicaly the same EDL system as MER, it'll about 50 km, right ?
RNeuhaus
Climber, good question. I have still not found about the Phoenix EDL details but a brief ones. The best I know is from http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/the_mission/entry.php which does not mention about the elliptical landing. Maybe Bruce or Ustrax can jump into that! smile.gif

Rodolfo
ustrax
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Jun 9 2006, 04:20 PM) *
Climber, good question. I have still not found about the Phoenix EDL details but a brief ones. The best I know is from http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/the_mission/entry.php which does not mention about the elliptical landing. Maybe Bruce or Ustrax can jump into that! smile.gif

Rodolfo


I'm working on it... smile.gif
Phil Stooke
As I understand it, the following three locations (two of them appear to overlap, but they are diagonally oriented) are now being considered for Phoenix.

Area B, box 1 66 to 68 N 225 to 234.
Area B, box 2 66 to 68 N 224 to 227
Area B, box 3 70 to 71 N 220 to 227

MOC images are being collected within each box.

Phil
RNeuhaus
Using the tool: Jmars, I have snapshot the area of 229.90E to 239.30E (approx. 215 km) and 66.83N to 68.88 N (approx. 120 km).

Click to view attachment

That zone is not so flat like Meridiani Planum and Gusev Crater...then there is some risk during the EDL.

Rodolfo
aldo12xu
Has anybody mentioned this MOC April 2006 imaging update?

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/guest/...17_phoenix.html
ustrax
QUOTE (aldo12xu @ Jun 13 2006, 05:25 PM) *
Has anybody mentioned this MOC April 2006 imaging update?

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/guest/...17_phoenix.html


Thank you aldo! biggrin.gif
Where can we see the coordinates for those captions?
RNeuhaus
Thanks Aldo, for a very good reference URL!

Rodolfo
Phil Stooke
Rodolfo, I'm sorry I forgot to add east or west to my Phoenix coordinates. They are west longitudes. Your image is at 230 east, or 130 west. The Phoenix landing area B is at 230 west. That area is much smoother.

Phil
RNeuhaus
Thanks Phil for the notification. Now the probably landing zone looks easier, however it still of low resolution from ODY images. Now the longitudi line is above of Elysium volcans.

Area B, Box 1: Click to view attachment <-- It would be terrific if Phonix lands inside the crater
66 to 68 N 225 to 234.

Area B, Box 2: Click to view attachment <-- It is a rough land
66 to 68 N 224 to 227

Area B, Box 3: Click to view attachment <-- It looks like safer landing
70 to 71 N 220 to 227

Rodolfo
ustrax
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jun 13 2006, 06:20 PM) *
Rodolfo, I'm sorry I forgot to add east or west to my Phoenix coordinates. They are west longitudes. Your image is at 230 east, or 130 west. The Phoenix landing area B is at 230 west. That area is much smoother.

Phil


Phil, where do that coordinates come from?
I got this ones from Doug Lombardi, who, in his latest e-mail talked about the question issued here about the size of the landing ellipse for the PML:

'We will have a landing ellipse...however, because our landing site is in the high northern latitudes the geometry of the ellipse will be different than those for the MERs...ours will be longer and thinner. The exact dimension won't be know until we finalize our location.'

Edited: Oops!...Forgot this part:

The landing site will be free of major craters...there are areas in the current region that fit this criteria. Also, as MRO comes on line...we will look for much smaller craters that could also be hazards.
RNeuhaus
QUOTE (ustrax @ Jun 14 2006, 10:44 AM) *
Phil, where do that coordinates come from?
I got this ones from Doug Lombardi, who, in his latest e-mail talked about the question issued here about the size of the landing ellipse for the PML:

Usatrax,

The above maps are covering the area what Dr. Doug Lombardi has mentioned: By now the proposed region for is between 65 and 72 deg N and 120 and 140 deg E, making a quick search that would put us on the vicinity of Panchaia Rupes...

Rodolfo
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