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Unmanned Spaceflight.com > Mars & Missions > Past and Future > MER > Spirit
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Juramike
If Spirit has most it's weight on the rock, the wheels won't have any traction.
Hungry4info
QUOTE (Juramike @ Sep 17 2009, 08:47 AM) *
If Spirit has most it's weight on the rock, the wheels won't have any traction.


Even rotational?
I realise that it would be greatly reduced, but wouldn't there be a tiny bit of traction?
In any event, the idea I had in mind is a last-ditch effort for if Spirit does become stuck on the rock. Isn't it at least worth a try?
ilbasso
I would like to think that the rock is sitting on top of sand, but if so, how did it get there, and how recently? Equally plausible is that the rock was in the hollow and was partially covered by the sand that accumulated there. Think "Block Island" - that is not just sitting on top of loose sand.

Assuming the rock split off from the edge of Home Plate and tumbled down, there might be some sand under it, but maybe not much.

Bottom line is, I think you have to plan for the worst case.
Juramike
As a last ditch effort, it's worth a try, sure. But I really, really hope they're successful with an extraction procedure before the rock becomes a factor.

Phil Stooke
I hate to say it but this is all a waste of time, and kind of annoying. Let's just look at pretty pictures.

Phil
DDAVIS

'I hate to say it but this is all a waste of time, and kind of annoying. Let's just look at pretty pictures.'

At some point after every effort has been made we should face up to the fact that this is the final location of Spirit. It is a beautiful location for a stationary 'lookout on Mars', and its cameras are still in great shape. Much useful work can be done, especially with imaging in time lapse animations of the lighting changes, looking for clouds and such. I would think of this opportunity as if a lander has just set down in this highly photogenic spot by good fortune, with an indefinite time period before us to obtain photos and images under different conditions, as did the Viking landers during their long lives.
briv1016
Here's a Midnight Mars Browser screenshot of the first 20 sections of the Scamander Plains Panorama. (L2 filter)
Stu
Well said, DDAVIS! smile.gif Seriously, you'd think that Spirit staying stuck would be the end of the world! It wouldn't - it would just be the end of roving! We'd have, essentially, another lander on Mars, with an amazing suite of instruments and a fantastic 'landing site' to study. Spirit would still take beautiful photos daily and do worthwhile science daily. It might even end up doing the best science of its entire mission, just by being able to study and monitor one landscape for a long period of time without scooting off somewhere else.

I actually think the best images of Spirit's mission will come once she does stop roving; the camera operators and imaging planners will be able to plan shots well in advance, without any deadline pressures and, taking account and advantage of specific lighting conditions and landmarks, take shamelessly beautiful pictures that will leave us all shaking our heads in wonder.

So come on everyone, less gloom and impatience. If this is where Spirit is fated to still her wheels, so be it. But her mission will continue. smile.gif
centsworth_II
As much as the 'all is lost' sentiment tires me, I'm also put off by an almost gleeful anticipation of failure to free Spirit.

It's natural to be disappointed if Spirit does not reach it's next target even if we have already reached many more targets than we ever had any right to hope for. It's also natural to look for the good in having a still functional but immobile Spirit. But let's not go overboard in either direction.
ElkGroveDan
Might I also point out that there has not been a single attempt since it got stuck, to move the rover that is sitting in Gusev Crater, on Mars, in .38g, in some unknown mixture of salts, silts and dust. Not one attempt. The only rover shown to be stuck is the one sitting in 1.0 g in a test bed full of diatomaceous earth in Pasadena. As far as I am concerned the only thing holding back Spirit right now is an abundance of caution. I will treat that as a hurdle that will eventually be overcome and do like I've been doing since Pioneer 10 was launched. I will wait patiently and trust the very smart people who have much more data to look at than I do..
Juramike
I still have hope:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa-jpl/3929612279/
mhoward
Best flickr photostream ever. Thanks for pointing it out. (I'm assuming it's official? Looks it, anyway.)
dvandorn
For anyone who has seen the musical The Fantasticks:

LUISA: Oh, my! That rover... it's stuck!

EL GALLO: The mask!

LUISA: But it can't move!

EL GALLO: The mask!

LUISA: It will never get to its next destination!

EL GALLO: Put on the mask!

(LUISA puts on the mask)

LUISA: Oh, look! It's a wonderful stationary lander! Look at the pretty pictures!

wink.gif

-the other Doug
Juramike
QUOTE (mhoward @ Sep 17 2009, 10:20 PM) *
Best flickr photostream ever. Thanks for pointing it out. (I'm assuming it's official? Looks it, anyway.)


I think so. Usually when a new image posts, it's also newly on the Planetary Photojournal.
HughFromAlice
QUOTE (Juramike @ Sep 18 2009, 12:28 PM) *
I still have hope.


So do I. A lunch break look at that interesting photostream soon took me to this great NASA jpeg worth posting here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa-jpl/3852...57616670931285/

Click to view attachment

Good to see what high quality to aim for from such limited originals - I compared my post #760 on p51!! http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...;p=144564&#

IMO that rock is barely, if at all, touching. As long as we don't start sinking down in the first few vital cms I think we will get out. IMO 4 to 1 on that Spirit gets out. In fact, I feel so optimistic that if we don't make it, I will buy any UMSFer a cappuccino (or beer) if they ever visit Alice Springs, in Central Australia!!! Now, that's confidence!!!




Stu
QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Sep 18 2009, 03:47 AM) *
I'm also put off by an almost gleeful anticipation of failure to free Spirit.


Er... blink.gif Re-reading the posts, and not one person here has shown any such thing.

I'm hopeful she'll get out - pretty sure she will, in fact; having personally met some of the people working on the problem I know how determined they are to free her smile.gif - but I'm ready to accept that if this is it then, well, this is it. Nothing wrong with a little bit of realism.
Hungry4info
QUOTE (Stu @ Sep 18 2009, 03:14 AM) *
Er... blink.gif Re-reading the posts, and not one person here has shown any such thing.


I absolutely agree. And besides, since she's been stuck for several months, why not do some productive thought and work our way down the tree of "if [situation] then try [something]" for several different scenarios and outcomes?

I personally think Spirit will be freed.
centsworth_II
QUOTE (Stu @ Sep 17 2009, 05:44 PM) *
...you'd think that Spirit staying stuck would be the end of the world! It wouldn't.... Spirit would still take beautiful photos daily and do worthwhile science daily. It might even end up doing the best science of its entire mission.... I actually think the best images of Spirit's mission will come once she does stop roving....

Best science of the entire mission? Best images of the mission? A bit overstated, no? I would say an overly enthusiastic anticipation of a failed extraction attempt. I don't want to downplay what Spirit could do as a static lander, but I certainly wouldn't downplay what she has done as a rover.

Sure, a stuck Spirit can do some solid, basic observational studies. But it's not as if she hasn't already spent years on Mars making observations. She's been to the mountain top and watched dust devils march across the plains from that vantage point. She has been through the abyss and the valley of glass, lived though a global dust storm. Not likely anything she does in her current location will outshine the best of all that.

Now I look like the bad guy, don't I? But, like you say in your last post, "nothing wrong with a little bit of realism."
Hungry4info
I certainly agree with you that a roving rover is more fun than a stuck rover. I personally am not worried about it, as I am confident Spirit will get out.
vikingmars
If Spirit becomes a static lander, we will have probably to fight more to save a budget for her daily operations in the coming years... sad.gif

=> I remember that, for VL1, we ended with NO budget from NASA for FY 1981, forcing the foundation of a citizen-sponsored fund, the "Viking Fund" for which USD 60,000 (eq. to USD 155,000 for 2008) was raised by subscriptions among the public... This money was donated to NASA in 1981 to ensure the continuation of the VL1 mission and -surprisingly (because it was a "administrative" 1st for space exploration), NASA accepted the cheque... ohmy.gif
At JPL this sum paid for the support of DSN to listen to VL1, the image processing at the IPL, archival at the PDS... smile.gif
djellison
QUOTE (vikingmars @ Sep 18 2009, 02:53 PM) *
If Spirit becomes a static lander, we will have probably to fight more to save a budget for her daily operations in the coming years... :


They don't fund Spirit. They fund MER. As long as one rover is active, the project should be OK getting funding.
vikingmars
QUOTE (djellison @ Sep 18 2009, 03:55 PM) *
"As long as one rover is active, the project should be OK getting funding."


...Yes, this is what was said to JPL in 1979. rolleyes.gif
The "song" was much different in 1980 with no more fundings... wacko.gif
As we used to say : "Get prepared for the worse and you'll have a good surprise" ! smile.gif
HughFromAlice
Some Navcam images from Sol1968 (July17th) taken over about a 6 minute period just after 1pm local time. Just newly available from Exploratorium site. Interesting dust devils. So I thought that I would enhance the images and do a quick colourization.

First dust devil starts almost immediately 2/3rds of the way to the horizon at about 10 o'clock. Also note the brief appearance of a big distant dust devil in the top left hand corner over the hill about 1/3rd of way through.

Click to view attachment

I posted the full size version here http://www.flickr.com/photos/42652279@N07/3931879456/ if anyone wants to have a look.
PhilCo126
So far the MER program costs about US $ 20 Million per year. Money well spend but "retiring" one rover has already been on the agenda... huh.gif
dvandorn
US $20 million a year sounds a little low, Phil. Assuming we started spending money on the MER project in 2001, that comes out to a total of $160 million. I thought we had spent more than that by now...

Even if it your figure is low, we've still gotten one heck of a bargain for our investment, haven't we?

-the other Doug
briv1016
Full inline quote removed. - Admin

The primary mission came to about $820M for the first 90 days. The extensions since then have only cost about $124M. (According to Wikipedia)


Edit: Just curious; how much of the $124M do you guys think was strictly DSN cost and how much was ground ops/images processing/archiving?
Oersted
Well, I have a pretty good idea as to where they could outsource image processing, and it would be totally done for free...

www.jpl.nasa.gov/umsf

wink.gif
JayB
fyi


Live Q&A Thursday 9/24 with Ashley Stroupe!
Rover driver Ashley Stroupe of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory will join SPACE.com on Thursday, September 24 at 2 p.m. ET to answer questions about the unexpectedly long-lived rovers, their past, present and future exploring the red planet. Submit your early questions for Ashley here by 12 noon ET Monday September 21. We will then choose a handful of questions at random for her to answer ahead of time, to be shared on September 24.

http://www.space.com/common/forums/viewtop...f=6&t=20100
dvandorn
QUOTE (briv1016 @ Sep 18 2009, 04:45 PM) *
The primary mission came to about $820M for the first 90 days. The extensions since then have only cost about $124M. (According to Wikipedia)


Well, then, wouldn't it be somewhat disingenuous to claim that the MERs have only cost about $20 million a year? It would be nice if you could just ignore the initial nearly-billion-dollar expense and just claim costs since landing, but that's something of a misrepresentation.

Indeed, when you put all of the costs together, the MER project has thus far, when amortized out to present, cost well more than $120 million per year.

Of course, just speaking of *extension* costs of running each rover past its 90-sol design lifetime, yes, we're looking at a little more than $20 million a year, and I would bet that DSN costs account for a large majority of that. (I mean, look at it -- there are what, about 20 people working on the MER project at any given time right now, correct? If the project covers an average of $50K salary per person per year, that's a million dollars. Add amortization of their computer systems, rental of office and work space, travel expenses, etc., etc., you'd have to top out at about $2 million prior to DSN costs. So it would seem that the DSN costs alone for a year of operations run up to about $18 to $20 million per year.)

It's getting to be time to attack the real funding-drain of any and all deep space missions -- the astronomical (pun intended) fees being charged for communicating with the spacecraft.

-the other Doug
djellison
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 19 2009, 06:37 PM) *
Of course, just speaking of *extension* costs of running each rover past its 90-sol design lifetime,


We are.

If you REALLY want to do MER accounting - then good luck figuring out the DSN costs for MER based on MODY relay.
vjkane
A long article on the current status of testing and chances for successful drive out has been posted at SpaceflightNow. Also a summary of current activities for both rovers.
HughFromAlice
More interesting older pics coming down to Exploratorium. Here's a dust devil (whirly whirly) from Sol 1984 (3Aug) v early afternoon. 16 frame sequence - first 12 frames a at 3 sec intervals, then the last are 49, 38,116 and 71 secs apart.

First 12 frames show a ragged dust devil moving along at a fair pace starting from mid distance just to the right of centre. It's ragged to the point of almost being a mini 'squall' front. The birth of another dust devil is picked up by frame 5 at about 10 o'clock in the mid-far upper left distance. It is much more tightly formed. It stays fairly small, until the last 4 frames, when it grows significantly bigger and ragged as it heads off towards the left. (My Edit Note: Added an extra frame at the end which has just become available at Exploratorium - the second dust devil makes a dramatic exit behind the hill!)

I've enhanced the b/w stills, then colourized them to make the dust devils themselves stand out as much as possible.

Click to view attachment

Posted full res version on Flickr here http://www.flickr.com/photos/42652279@N07/?saved=1
CosmicRocker
Unless the history of the earth has been rewritten recently, the second to the last paragraph in that SpaceflightNow article contains several dubious statements regarding the early history of the earth.

QUOTE
"At the same time that meteorite landed in the same spot where Opportunity discovered it, on Earth the surface had just cooled enough to for the formation of rocks and an initial solid surface. Only one giant continent existed as plate tectonics were just beginning to function. The absorption of carbon dioxide by the oceans, however, had left a high oxygen content in the atmosphere, factors leading to the formation if initial extremely simple forms of life here."
stevesliva
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 19 2009, 12:37 PM) *
Well, then, wouldn't it be somewhat disingenuous to claim that the MERs have only cost about $20 million a year? It would be nice if you could just ignore the initial nearly-billion-dollar expense and just claim costs since landing, but that's something of a misrepresentation.


It's not, at all. It's just a sunk cost. At least it was a high return billion dollars. If the equation is "we've sunk a billion into MSL and it will take $20 million more to get to Mars" the real cost in money you haven't spent is the same: $20 million.
centsworth_II
QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Sep 20 2009, 01:30 AM) *
...the second to the last paragraph in that SpaceflightNow article contains several dubious statements regarding the early history of the earth.

Yes, a disorienting mix up of time lines.

Except for "just cooled enough [for] the formation of rocks," it looks like he is describing events on Earth about one billion rather than three billion years ago: Then, Rodinia, "a giant continent of a billion years ago," existed and 'initial, extremely simple' multicellular life forms were emerging.

In any case, what bothers me about the article is this paragraph, which seems totaly out of date:
"The rover's solar arrays had earlier picked up a slight covering of dust from the passing storm, but a gust of wind later cleared off the array. This is enabling Spirit to obtain ample power. It is enough that the rover is run at night, so the power generation and storage during the day do not cause heating problems. The ample power means Sprit will be able to survive the coming Martian winter stuck where it is without the need to move to a sun facing hillside as was the case when Spirit first arrived at this site."

Haven't the days of excess power and lack of concern for making it through the winter come and gone? It's been three weeks since the power levels have tumbled from the giddy highs of 900 plus Whrs to hover just above 400. I haven't seen an estimate for how low the power level could be as winter approaches and still leave hope for survival if Spirit cannot move, but I'm pretty sure that 400 Whrs would not be "ample".
PhilCo126
All I remember of the article is the posibility that Spirit will never rove again...

"There is a very real possibility that Spirit may not be able to get out," says John Callas, rover project manager.

huh.gif
djellison
We've already covered that comment Phil. Spaceflightnow, as with all the media, are taking that statement (which is no less or more true today than the day she got stuck) and running with it. It's what all the media have done.
Tesheiner
I think its worth to say once again; no real driving was attempted for the time being and its too early to say if Spirit is stuck or not. I have my thoughts too, but I won't put my money on one or another bet until I see the firsts results of all those simulations on real ground.
ElkGroveDan
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Sep 19 2009, 09:37 AM) *
you'd have to top out at about $2 million prior to DSN costs. So it would seem that the DSN costs alone for a year of operations run up to about $18 to $20 million per year.)

There's a new topic where we can take the discussion of DSN costs:
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=6218
fredk
QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Sep 20 2009, 06:30 AM) *
...the second to the last paragraph in that SpaceflightNow article contains several dubious statements regarding the early history of the earth.

This is the quote from the new article that surprized me the most, although given the sloppiness/errors in other parts of the story, it's impossible to know if this is false, a severe exageration, or true:
QUOTE
A mid summer plan to use the ground test data acquired to that point for new maneuver commands for a drive out attempt in August were shelved when a review... found they would have almost no chance of success.
I certainly hadn't heard that they deemed "almost no chance of success".
CosmicRocker
QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Sep 20 2009, 03:15 AM) *
Yes, a disorienting mix up of time lines.
Haven't the days of excess power and lack of concern for making it through the winter come and gone? It's been three weeks since the power levels have tumbled from the giddy highs of 900 plus Whrs to hover just above 400. I haven't seen an estimate for how low the power level could be as winter approaches and still leave hope for survival if Spirit cannot move, but I'm pretty sure that 400 Whrs would not be "ample".


Right, disorienting to say the least. If I can squeeze one more OT comment in here, the statement that the absorption of CO2 by the oceans and the concentration of O2 in the atmosphere gave rise to the formation of simple forms of life was the one comment that amazed me the most. For quite a long time now the evidence in banded iron formations has strongly supported the idea that photosynthetic life originated before there was any free oxygen in the atmosphere.

Regarding your thought that Spirit's days of excess power and lack of concern have come and gone; I have to believe that that must certainly be close to the truth, since the dust factor had been climbing dramatically after the passing of the dust storm.
Tman
QUOTE (HughFromAlice @ Sep 20 2009, 02:14 AM) *
More interesting older pics coming down to Exploratorium. Here's a dust devil (whirly whirly) from Sol 1984 (3Aug) v early afternoon.

Hi Hugh,

Remarkable how you've got the DDs enhanced.

Speaking of methods to enhance pics, do you know Daniel Crotty's dust devils page? He managed it to make the DDs most visible.
As far as I've learned in Photoshop the trick is to work additionally with an inverted picture/layer (without any DD appearance) and automatic adjustment of tonal value and soft-focus effects (roughly spoken). Though the result for the entire image is somewhat blurred.

Here a new try on the sol 1953 wind gust and DDs in light coloring for better contrast (~2MB):

In black and white

You may scale down the size of the browser window to get more sharpness.

Sol 1984: http://www.greuti.ch/spirit/sol1984dds2.gif
HughFromAlice
I really appreciate your pointers. There's a lot to learn from Daniel's work. Didn't he also do some really good Huygens pics?

I am really just at the start of a long journey in all this - currently embarking on the joys of things such as masking and lensing etc in Corel Photopaint X4 (We use Corel Draw for our graphics at work)!

I love getting the feedback - it's really helpful. Half the fun is thinking about how you can do better the next time round!! Thanks Peter, Hugh
sgendreau
QUOTE (fredk @ Sep 20 2009, 05:36 PM) *
This is the quote from the new article that surprized me the most, although given the sloppiness/errors in other parts of the story, it's impossible to know if this is false, a severe exageration, or true:I certainly hadn't heard that they deemed "almost no chance of success".


Here's a link to where one of the drivers (Scott Maxwell) is twittering -- he says the team has agreed on an extraction strategy, more tests still to come but they've decided what they want to do. If he's given up hope he hides it very well.

http://twitter.com/#search?q=marsroverdriver


sgendreau (newbie)
doesn't get the twitter thing but doesn't mind eavesdropping
Astro0
Love the dust devil images guys. smile.gif
Today we are experiencing an enormous dust storm moving across the country.
Here's a view of our 70-metre antenna this morning and again this afternoon as the storm really hit.
Click to view attachment
Everything is being coated in a red Mars-like dust. Now I know how the Rovers feel! wink.gif
ElkGroveDan
What's your tau Astro0?
Astro0
laugh.gif Dan! All I know is that it got quite dark at one point with dust and clouds. Fortunately the outlook is improving.

Another similarity to the Mars Rovers and today's dust storm...the dust has been getting inside our Visitor Centre and I noticed that our full-scale Rover model is covered in a fine layer of dusty red soil.
Click to view attachment
Fortunately I can create my own dd.gif to clean our Rover smile.gif rolleyes.gif

In fact everything outside is being coated in this fine red soil. OMG we're turning into mars.gif !!!
Tman
laugh.gif
But wow, what a storm you've got there Google links
Amazing that dark and intensive red in these videos!


Back to Mars dust
QUOTE
Though the result for the entire image is somewhat blurred.

The image/animation of DDs comes great by using MRD calibrated images:
(2,4MB) http://greuti.ch/spirit/sol568ddcalib2.gif

No soft-focus effect is needed to lessen the artifacts as with the raw pics.
Shaka
Crikeys, Mate! Does this mean you have to climb up in the dish with a broom and dustbin?
Good on ya, Astro0.
cool.gif
HughFromAlice
Impressive, Peter. Anyone reading this, make sure to check out Peter's DD link above.

What's MRD? Probably obvious, but I can't think of it.

Sorry about the dust Astro0 - a lot of it must have come down from around here. In dry years, it's definitely Mars like in Central Aus. Just chuck in a few mulga trees and spinifex into some of those Husband Hill pics and it could almost be my back yard!!!




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