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elakdawalla
I can't believe I haven't started a dedicated thread on this before now!! I wanted to open a discussion on the Planetary Society's plans to develop a website called AmateurSpaceImages.com, a place that will collect amateur-processed space images into one place that is easy to browse and search for great pictures, and from which you'll be able to share them easily via social networks. The organization of the site will be based on Photojournal, which is itself based on the way the PDS structures space data -- all images will be filed under the "target" and "mission" and "instrument," plus there will be image titles, captions, and correct credits; plus there'll be tags and a search feature. The site is currently under development and is planned for launch early next year (hopefully March, if the schedule doesn't slip). We're now raising funds from the community to support its development.

Some of you have been emailing me privately with questions; I think it'd be neater (and less effort for me smile.gif ) to have that discussion in the open, on this thread. If for some reason you'd like your question to be anonymous, you can email me and I'll post it here. Since this is a website we are creating especially for the community that has grown up in and around UMSF, I hope you will participate in its formation!
Juramike
Since I'm one of the private e-mailers mentioned above (and a potential financial backer), I'll post my questions out in the open:

How will the images be selected?  (open submission, single admin, or
panel of judges, or invite only?)

Submitted only from UMSF members? Or non-UMSF members as well?

Is the initial start up fee ($5400) a one-time deal?  Or will there
be an annual maintenance fee as well?

Finally, how will this be significantly different from a flickr group pool?
elakdawalla
QUOTE (Juramike @ Dec 14 2010, 01:01 PM) *
How will the images be selected?  (open submission, single admin, or panel of judges, or invite only?)

Anyone will be able to submit an image through a form, from which they'll also be asked to provide information about the image including title, caption with information about what processing was done, data processing credit, and information on target/instrument etc.

Submissions will be vetted by a moderation team that will likely overlap significantly with, but will not be identical to, the unmannedspaceflight.com moderation team. It would be better if we had a few more moderators lined up -- please send me an email or PM to volunteer. Only one moderator need OK an image. Our goal is to make a pretty large image database that will be easy to search; moderators will be instrumental in making sure that images are correctly tagged and credited before they are allowed to go live.

QUOTE (Juramike @ Dec 14 2010, 01:01 PM) *
Submitted only from UMSF members? Or non-UMSF members as well?

Anybody! AmateurSpaceImages is a project inspired by UMSF and both will be financially administered by the Planetary Society; they're regarded as being part of the same project. However, there will be no direct relationship between UMSF membership and AmateurSpaceImages submission (so I hope that some of the good image processors who've gotten booted out of this website for rules violations will share their stuff at AmateurSpaceImages). Also, the Society will use the same server to host UMSF and AmateurSpaceImages.

QUOTE (Juramike @ Dec 14 2010, 01:01 PM) *
Is the initial start up fee ($5400) a one-time deal?  Or will there be an annual maintenance fee as well?

That start-up fee is a one-time deal for design and development. There will be costs associated with the hosting but they'll be an increment on top of what we pay already for the dedicated UMSF server (we just need to expand the storage space). Next year when I pass the hat for UMSF I'll be raising funds for both.

QUOTE (Juramike @ Dec 14 2010, 01:01 PM) *
Finally, how will this be significantly different from a flickr group pool?

Mainly in the site's organization around space image targets, instruments, and missions, which will hopefully make it easy to browse as well as search because of its specificity to the subject matter. Also I wanted a destination, a dedicated gallery. And I wanted it to be moderated, both to establish a quality bar and to make sure that credits are correct -- both for the data and for the processing. The tools for social network sharing will generate code that includes a credit line. I'm very insistent about this part because I know how sensitive both the data producers and the data processors are about making sure that credit is given where it's due.
JohnVV
sounds good as I might be one of the content contributors ( not financial - unemployed at this time)
elakdawalla
Another question asked of me through Facebook: "Are the images, which are potentially copyrightable, to be offered on the basis of being works of art which the originators retain the rights for, or is the intent to have them placed in the Public Domain, presumably with the approval of the artist?"

My plan, unless I hear from a lot of really good image processors who would not share their images under these conditions, is to post them under a Creative Commons Attribition-NonCommercial-ShareAlike license.
JohnVV
as for licenses i have always used the orig. 90% of the time i use images from PDS
and if not pds then nasa and jpl and U of A for hires and just bring along what the original was.
eoincampbell
Will there be a place for those afraid of(or new to)processing such images, so as to brush up on skills?
Best wishes on the new site smile.gif
DDAVIS
I have a number of such images, however most I would contribute only with my copyright notice visible. In cases where a significant addition to the original has been done this is appropriate. The people behind many of the images seen here deserve to have a chance to benefit from their work, and a copyright notice provides more notice on behalf of the artist. I suggest then that both copyrighted and works released to a Creative Commons status be accommodated. The condition 'Noncommercial — You may not use this work for commercial purposes. ' seems compatible with this, as both require permission for such use.

Don
tedstryk
I agree with Don on this one.
elakdawalla
Don and Ted, just to be clear, this would mean there would not be a creative commons license on the works, but only a copyright notice?
hendric
Emily,
Would posters such as Astro0 and Stu's be welcome on the site as well? Or my New Horizons Jupiter Flyby Anniversary?
DDAVIS
' just to be clear, this would mean there would not be a creative commons license on the works, but only a copyright notice?;


Yes.
ZLD
Forgive my ignorance, but outside of photographing objects with your own camera, is it even possible to copyright images you have only composited from something such as the PDS? Maybe I'm just confused and assuming most are not talking about composite images.
ElkGroveDan
Yes. In general, under U.S. law both copyright and patents maybe held by someone who makes improvements to a previous copyright or patent.

Normally it's a risky thing to invest a whole lot of time and money in someone else's patent or copyright because while they would have to pay you to use or sell the improvements, you would not be able to use the newer combined invention or art without the approval of the original copyright or patent holder. In the case of NASA images however where there is a blanket copyright release for most uses, there exist very few underlying copyright restrictions for the second artist. It therefore makes sense to go ahead and improve on those images for fame, fortune or entertainment.
DDAVIS
'Is it even possible to copyright images you have only composited from something such as the PDS?'

If one is doing little or nothing to rework a Public Domain image, I would say no, but once it is significantly modified and made into something refined, restored etc. It becomes a new creation that would not have happened without the work involved, and is thus the intellectual property of the creator.
djellison
QUOTE (ZLD @ Dec 15 2010, 12:12 PM) *
Forgive my ignorance, but outside of photographing objects with your own camera, is it even possible to copyright images you have only composited from something such as the PDS? Maybe I'm just confused and assuming most are not talking about composite images.



The creation of mosaics, composites, anaglyphs, projections and other treatments of raw data constitute the creation of an original work - and as such the copyright for this derived imagery lies with the individual who created it. Copyright does not have to be explicitly stated to be enforcable.

(copied from UMSF forum guidelines)
DDAVIS
' Copyright does not have to be explicitly stated to be enforcable.'

The copyright status should be explicitly shown on the work, especially on line. This will help prevent confusion by others in the status of such derived works compared to the original material. If one wants to be in a more practical position to enforce copyright it has to be registered. It is much easier to do this now in the digital age:

http://www.copyright.gov/
djellison
Oh - I totally agree - it makes perfect sense to include a copyright .

Might an appropriate compromise be to say that imagery hosted at ASI is available for use under the CC licence unless otherwise stated (see individual images for details)
elakdawalla
Well, from a coding standpoint, I'd planned to put the CC license in the page footer. But I think I'm hearing that that'd be unacceptable to people. So I think instead what would be better is for the submission form to have an option, to choose that the work be copyrighted, or that it be posted under the CC license, and for copyrighted images I'd put an extra line under the image credit. Are those two options sufficient? What should the copyright notice say? "© [COPYRIGHT HOLDER], all rights reserved."?
JohnVV
QUOTE
Might an appropriate compromise be to say that imagery hosted at ASI is available for use under the CC licence unless otherwise stated (see individual images for details)

now that makes a lot of sense

for non-commercial most are happy with just there name referenced on a image used for some other thing
for commercial use - let the individual decide on that .
DDAVIS
"© [COPYRIGHT HOLDER], all rights reserved."

Looks good.

-DD-
tedstryk
QUOTE (DDAVIS @ Dec 15 2010, 10:27 PM) *
"© [COPYRIGHT HOLDER], all rights reserved."

Looks good.

-DD-

Along with some means by which those interested in using the image can contact the copyright holder.
Juramike
I agree with Ted.

I've contacted through and been contacted by flickr mail for graphic preparations many times. Having some mechanism of getting in touch with the author is incredibly useful.

Some of the other functionalities of flickr might be kinda useful, too. (favorites, visual location tags, comments?)



elakdawalla
Comments are already planned to be included, but favorites would require a user login system, which we aren't planning to implement. I've had others suggest a rating system though, which might be useful and wouldn't require user login -- but only if you can sort search results on rating. We are planning to have "featured images" that would change regularly, with the featured images being chosen by moderators, and the system will remember which images have been featured in the past so that you can promote them to the top of the search results. The home page will show the featured image and smaller thumbnails of recent featured images. We are planning on storing an email address with the image, which can be used to contact the image submitter.
elakdawalla
A question for people interested in copyright. One of the elements I want to include is embed code so that people can post the image in their blogs, with a link back to the detail page on AmateurSpaceImages.com. The embed code will include the image as well as a title and a credit line (including copyright) in text format. People can obviously delete this if they choose before posting, but at least the starting state would be to include the correct credit. Don, Ted, is it OK for people to share reduced-resolution versions of images in their blogs, linking back to this website, without contacting you first? I suppose I could ask for the embed code option to be disabled when the submitter has chosen to reserve rights, but I'll admit I'm not very excited about doing that...

--Emily
tedstryk
I like to know, but that is fine so long as credit is given and it is noncommercial use.
DDAVIS
' Don, Ted, is it OK for people to share reduced-resolution versions of images in their blogs, linking back to this website, without contacting you first?'

I don't care if people want to grab images for non commercial use which doesn't conflict with my concerns as content creator.
People should ideally ask first when wanting them for blog articles, including contact info for the originators will facilitate this. I love to provide images to share my enthusiasm for the subject, as well as to make a living. I might not want my work used to promote some anomolist cause, for instance, but if I care enough about such things I will register the copyright. A visible © notice in the work will go a long way, that separates the 'wheat from the chaff' in the apparent ethics of people looking for images.
elakdawalla
Just a quick note to tell everyone that we've got our design nailed down for AmateurSpaceImages.com and are proceeding to development; we're still on track to have development completed in March. Based on the concerns raised in this thread, image processors will be able to specify that they reserve copyright or that they are providing the image under a Creative Commons license.

I am now trying to amass a starter database of images that'll go live with the site in March. If you'd like to see your images on the site when it goes live, please contact me at blog@planetary.org and I'll discuss with you how to document them.
CosmicRocker
I had a thought about a category of images for the new web site that I think would be interesting to all the UMSF members. I guess it would be a "Best of UMSF" gallery. The UMSF forum keeps a record of how many times each posted image is viewed by readers. Why not create a ranked gallery of the 100 most viewed images of the forum? I think it would be fascinating.

If people like that idea, there are other variations that could be used; like the most viewed rover, Cassini, HiRise images, etc. unsure.gif
JAC
This all looks very exciting - lots of lovely images to look at!
paxdan
Hi Emily,

Is there an update on the launch date for AmateurSpaceImages.com? The site still says it was due for launch in early 2011.

Thanks
elakdawalla
I'm sorry about the slowness. The developer is behind his schedule and I've been too busy to keep on his case, and now we've gotten into summer when I have a crazy amount of family travel. The current status is that it's in an alpha condition -- the guts of the site work (upload and display of images, editing of metadata within a moderator interface) but there are lots of refinements that the developer hasn't finished yet. I want to go back and forth with the developer a little bit more before I show it to the rest of the committee for their feedback. Once they've done that I'll consider it beta and will post about it here. I meant to change the date on the index page before I left on my current trip but just forgot. I'll have to do that when I get back home in 2 weeks.
elakdawalla
Just an update. Progress is still being made but it is painfully slow and I'm frustrated and sorry it's taking so long. As I anticipated in May, I was too busy during the summer to keep riding the programmer, who, in the meantime, quit his day job and moved across the country and started business school. I started hassling him again in September. The current status is that I have, for four weeks, been in a state of "just gotta get the programmer to fix this one broken thing and then I can send it out to the committee for review." The problem is that every time the programmer fixes one broken thing, something else important seems to break. He is responding to my emails though, so, hopefully, I will be able to show it to some people soon. He has still only received 30% of the amount of his contract (the advance I initially paid him early this year), so fortunately I have quite a bit of financial leverage to make sure he finishes up the work to our satisfaction.

So, many apologies that it's taking so long for your donations to be put to the use for which they were so generously given. I am pushing hard.
nprev
No worries, E.; I'm certain that it will be well worth the wait!!! smile.gif
CosmicRocker
I'm sorry, Emily, but this is ridiculous. The person you hired clearly does not have the same priorities that you do. You shouldn't have to "ride" this person to complete the job. Perhaps I don't understand what you are trying to do, but I wouldn't have thought it would be so difficult to create an image gallery. I would suggest that you put the job up for bid once again.
jasedm
Curious. A contract with the Planetary Society would be a feather in the cap of most programmers I would think. However we're not party to the details, so maybe there are some genuine issues that are difficult to resolve.
I'm sure it will be worth the wait however, and I look forward to the results.

Jase



djellison
QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ Oct 25 2011, 09:03 PM) *
I'm sorry, Emily, but this is ridiculous.


How about

QUOTE (jasedm @ Oct 26 2011, 11:12 AM) *
. However we're not party to the details, so maybe there are some genuine issues that are difficult to resolve.



JohnVV
QUOTE
to keep riding the programmer, who, in the meantime, quit his day job and moved across the country and started business school. I started hassling him again in September.

it sounds like this programmer is where i was back in 2002
just learning html and php , but i had a gallery up and running in a week .

Looks like you need a new person .
nprev
Everyone, just a general thought: One thing I've learned about projects is that it's always the most unexpected--sometimes ridiculous, or often ridiculously unlikely--things that bite you in the ass.

It's a pretty chaotic Universe, after all. I got some truly bizarre stories that I wish I could share but that's a vice of the old, and certainly not appropriate for this forum.

Patience.

It'll be worth it.
centsworth_II
Programmer's view: being bit in ass.

Customer's view: needs a kick in the ass.

laugh.gif
CosmicRocker
QUOTE (djellison @ Oct 26 2011, 02:22 PM) *
How about

It's true that we're "not party to the details," but I admitted that point in my original post. I was simply responding to Emily's post where she expressed frustration with the programmer's delays due to his life's-choice decisions. It didn't sound as if the delays were due to difficult, technical problems that bit someone in their behind.

I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time here, except, perhaps, the anonymous programmer. I'm confident that it will be a great site when Emily unveils it, and I, too, look forward to the results.
jasedm
Hi Emily,

Is there any progress you're able to give us re: amateurspaceimages.com? I for one am keenly anticipating the project, and can't wait for the unveiling...

Jase
elakdawalla
Yes. After a long period of being MIA, the programmer has subcontracted to another one. Progress is again being made.
jasedm
Thanks Emily,

Looking forward to it!

Jase
machi
From Emily's twitter: "In 2 weeks you will see a spectacular new Planetary Society website. If I do not work myself to death before then, that is. Goodnight, all."
What this could be? smile.gif
djellison
The redesign of TPS's website.
elakdawalla
Yeah, sorry. I had to redirect my attention to our main site redesign. It's going to be awesome though, and the new site will actually feature such amazing 21st century innovations as KEYWORDS on blog posts, so it'll be easy to find posts containing amateur-processed images there! (In case my tone is hard to read, the lack of keywords or really any kind of metadata on blog posts at all has been driving me crazy for five years.)
vikingmars
QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Apr 12 2012, 05:25 PM) *
.../...It's going to be awesome though, and the new site will actually feature such amazing 21st century innovations as KEYWORDS on blog posts, so it'll be easy to find posts containing amateur-processed images there! .../...

Great Emily ! A new site and more attractive means more members for TPS... Meaning also more actions to foster space exploration... "Vive la Planetary Society !" of which we are so proud of being members (since 1982 for me), thanks also to its nice team and to this your good work of our beloved "Bloguette par Excellence" ! (in French)
Congratulations Emily for all you are doing for us and TPS wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif
climber
I fully second this...and not only because I'm French wink.gif (1989 for me. I mean, member biggrin.gif )
And you're rigth Olivier: "blogUette"
elakdawalla
Hi all. To gloss over an eventful few months in a few words, I've ditched the programmer and am just about ready to launch amateurspaceimages.com as a part of the Society's new website, which, as it developed, had pretty much all the capability I needed built right in. It'll be based on the functionality of the Space Images section of the site -- browse that to enjoy the keyword searching and nice page-filling display of huge images -- but I've added in some extra bits and pieces like authorship of images (which means you'll be able to pull up a dynamic list of your own images that have been posted on the site). There are a couple of small pieces that I have to wrap up, but it should be ready for prime time before long. I am posting now because I am finally ready to make a call to people who produce a lot of images to help me populate the site. When the site goes live there will be a submission form to upload one image at a time (and of course a moderation process) but I can also perform a batch import of properly prepared images and metadata.

So if you would like to see your work included at amateurspaceimages.com, here is what you have to do. It is a bit of work to do this preparation and I hope not to have to do it all myself.

In a nutshell: For each image there needs to be a line in a spreadsheet or CSV file containing metadata.

Image files: -- JPG, GIF, or PNG format, any file size is fine. Best way to send lots of files is probably something like Dropbox or Google Drive.

Image metadata

Fill out attached spreadsheet with one line for each image submission. There is an example line in the spreadsheet to help you.

Click to view attachment

Explanations of the columns:

title: A few-word title for the image, used for display on website and for image alt text

filename: image filename

photo_credit: full credit line for the image

data_date (optional but desirable): date the original data was acquired. It's okay to use either Y/M/D, M/D/Y, or D/M/Y, as long as it's obvious to me which one you're using.

description: Paragraph used as caption and as short description in search results. 1 or 2 sentences. For usefulness in search, make sure it mentions the target and the spacecraft, good also to mention processor (you) by name.

body: Optional (but HIGHLY DESIRABLE) extended description of the image and how it was processed. If you've written a blog entry about the image, you could paste that here. Use basic HTML markup for formatting (<p>, <a>, <em>, <strong> all ok). Links to original data sources would be great. It's also fine to put here a teaser and link to something about the image on your own blog or website or, for that matter, on this forum. Or include none of this.

Finally: Anyone who has images on the site will also have a profile page that will index your image submissions. Here's a good example of an existing profile, of Ted Stryk. Please send me text and a 233x233 pixel photo to use for your profile!

I am hoping to make this live before I leave for vacation in July. I have enough images to go live with now, and can add batch submissions afterward. But the more, the merrier! Bring them on!!!
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