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Marslauncher
Not sure if this has been touched on before, I did not see a place for the MAVEN mission on the Past or Future missions subsection.

1)Will MAVEN have the ability to relay communication from the surface vehicles to Earth?
2)Am I correct in reading there are no visual cameras on MAVEN?


Fair Use.

http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/maven/scienc...rument-package/

The Particles and Fields Package, built by the University of California, Berkeley/Space Sciences Laboratory (SSL) with support from the University of Colorado Boulder/Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics (LASP) and Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC), contains six instruments that will characterize the solar wind and the ionosphere of the planet:

•Solar Wind Electron Analyzer (SWEA)
•Solar Wind Ion Analyzer (SWIA)
•Suprathermal and Thermal Ion Composition (STATIC)
•Solar Energetic Particle (SEP)
•Langmuir Probe and Waves (LPW)
•Magnetometer (MAG)
The Remote Sensing Package, built by LASP, will determine global characteristics of the upper atmosphere and ionosphere via remote sensing.

•Imaging Ultraviolet Spectrometer (IUVS)
The Neutral Gas and Ion Mass Spectrometer (NGIMS), provided by GFSC, will measure the composition and isotopes of neutral ions.



Apologies in advance if this has already been answered. (btw I think we do need a MAVEN sticky in future missions)

John (Mars)

MahFL
"NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., will provide navigation support, the Deep Space Network, and Electra telecommunications relay package."

Overview

So yes to Q1.

As far as I recall it's going to be NASA policy to fly a relay package on all NASA orbiters, and proberbly ESA has the same policy.
Drkskywxlt
Yes to both questions. However, MAVEN will not as useful for surface communications since it will be in a highly elliptical orbit. It's possible after several years they might adjust the orbit to make it more comm-friendly, but I wouldn't count on it. For that very reason, a *possible* 2018 orbiter will almost certainly have future lander comm as one its primary objectives.

NASA pays to put an Elektra comm package on all Mars-bound spacecraft and will pay for one on the 2016 ESA Trace Gas Orbiter if/when it flys. That, in fact, is the only remaining US contribution to that mission.
Marslauncher
Thanks, That was what I had assumed (Telecom on all orbiters) but could not find any mention (without knowing the Elektra package was that).

As much as I wish all missions could be mobile rovers / Sample Return / Human Exploration setup missions, we certainly need coverage for our landers and orbital relay capability. I was sad to see the MTO cancelled.

I will have my mini mission control set up for next Sunday / Monday mornings MSL landing (with Odyssey thankfully back on track) which led me to that question about coverage.

Thanks again.

John
MahFL
I believe the plan with MAVEN is to park it in a good orbit for communications once the primary mission objectives are achieved, I think I heard that on a conference one time. It would be illogical to put an electra onboard that could hardly be utilized.
Drkskywxlt
QUOTE (MahFL @ Jul 30 2012, 12:08 PM) *
I believe the plan with MAVEN is to park it in a good orbit for communications once the primary mission objectives are achieved, I think I heard that on a conference one time. It would be illogical to put an electra onboard that could hardly be utilized.


Yes, I've heard something similar. But I've also heard that they have intent to lower their "dip" altitude during an extended mission to get some additional science.

The Elektra isn't useless in an elliptical orbit (see Mars Express for an example), just not as reliable for daily science relay operations like a lander would need.
MahFL
QUOTE (Drkskywxlt @ Jul 30 2012, 06:12 PM) *
Yes, I've heard something similar. But I've also heard that they have intent to lower their "dip" altitude during an extended mission to get some additional science..


Well the comms orbit would be after an extended mission then smile.gif.
stone
QUOTE (MahFL @ Jul 31 2012, 03:13 AM) *
Well the comms orbit would be after an extended mission then smile.gif.


One scientist of MAVEN said in 2009 on a Marsexpress meeting they told nasa they will built in the electra package and nasa said no you also have to connect it.

This brings it to the point the scientists will like to go deeper and deeper into the atmosphere and in the end burn the thing in a very low dip. The scientists are not in favor of the idea that the spacecraft although it is still working has to do relay work.

I still hope for enough orbiting spacecrafts in the future. The ExoMars Tacegas Orbiter will also have an electra module.


mwolff
QUOTE (stone @ Jan 31 2013, 07:18 AM) *
This brings it to the point the scientists will like to go deeper and deeper into the atmosphere and in the end burn the thing in a very low dip. The scientists are not in favor of the idea that the spacecraft although it is still working has to do relay work.



Given NASA's lack of any NASA-primary orbiters before the 2020 rover (concept), it is unlikely that NASA would be highly motivated to sacrifice the spacecraft for the ultimate "deep dip". Furthermore, with extended missions comes extended (though usually reduced) funding...and I have faith that the MAVEN PI and Co-Is will see the wisdom of continued, if reduced, funding and scientific returns enabled with a more telecom-friendly orbit.
Drkskywxlt
Per Bruce Jakosky at the pre-AGU MAVEN workshop, MAVEN's nominal orbit is not as unfriendly to rover/lander comm as one might think just by eyeball.
vjkane
For the 2020 rover mission, NASA is planning on having the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, MAVEN, and ESA/Russia's Trace Gas Orbiter. I believe the Odyssey will run out of fuel before then. MRO would be especially important for detailed imaging, although it has been actively imaging a list of candidate sites. I think that prophylactic imaging covers only the potential landing eclipse, not the full extent of the possible roving area. Anyone know for sure?
stone
QUOTE (Drkskywxlt @ Jan 31 2013, 06:38 PM) *
Per Bruce Jakosky at the pre-AGU MAVEN workshop, MAVEN's nominal orbit is not as unfriendly to rover/lander comm as one might think just by eyeball.


The problem is not that they do not have a unfriendly orbit, but that they have to serve the rovers and their own science, puting some restrictions on them.
stevesliva
Some integration photos of MAVEN here
Explorer1
Was it ever explained why the ends of the solar panels are bent inward like that? Does it have to do with the magnetometers? I don't see how that angling would provide more power.
centsworth_II
QUOTE (Explorer1 @ Apr 9 2013, 11:34 PM) *
Was it ever explained why the ends of the solar panels are bent...?
My guess: So they can be as long as possible and still fit in the fairing? Also, no solar cells are on the bent portions so nothing to do with power, just increasing the length (distance from craft).
mcaplinger
QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Apr 9 2013, 09:03 PM) *
My guess: So they can be as long as possible and still fit in the fairing?

From http://lunar.colorado.edu/~jaburns/astr480...AVEN-ExSumm.pdf

QUOTE
The solar arrays were enlarged to allow a “gull-wing” design, to shift the center of pressure (CP) relative to the center of gravity
(CG) and provide aerostability under all circumstances.

nprev
A very fine example of learning from experience & making improvements, I'd say. That's how it works. smile.gif
djellison
QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Apr 9 2013, 08:03 PM) *
My guess: So they can be as long as possible and still fit in the fairing?


They have hinges. Fitting isn't a problem. Indeed - having them at the angle they are means they must be BIGGER to provide equivilent power margin compared to entirely 'flat' arrays.

QUOTE
Also, no solar cells are on the bent portions so nothing to do with power


The very first hit for a Google image search of 'MAVEN solar panel' (and indeed every artists impression of MAVEN ever released) shows that there are indeed solar cells on the angled panel

http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/maven/files/...solar_panel.jpg
mcaplinger
QUOTE (djellison @ Apr 9 2013, 10:10 PM) *
having them at the angle they are means they must be BIGGER to provide [equivalent] power margin compared to entirely 'flat' arrays.

Cosine losses for these small angles are pretty negligible, of course (e.g., cos(10) is 0.98).
Explorer1
And the other option, putting the magnetometers on their own booms, would probably have been too heavy. Makes sense.
djellison
QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Apr 9 2013, 10:31 PM) *
Cosine losses for these small angles are pretty negligible, of course (e.g., cos(10) is 0.98).


Good point - I was only inspired to mentioned it because the paper you linked to does use the phrases "The solar arrays were enlarged to allow a “gull-wing” design..." before going on to talk about CP/CG etc.
mcaplinger
QUOTE (nprev @ Apr 9 2013, 10:01 PM) *
A very fine example of learning from experience...

I'm not sure what experience you're talking about. Previous Mars orbiters using aerobraking (e.g., MGS, MRO) have had articulated solar panels that could be shuttlecocked back for stability. MAVEN has fixed panels so this wasn't an option.
dvandorn
This, of course, would not be the first time a Mars probe has had some kind of "trim flaps" at the tips of its solar panels, and the reasoning was similar, if not exactly the same.

Mariners 3 and 4 (of which only Mariner 4 survived launch) had small triangular trim tabs at the ends of its solar panels. This was not for aerodynamics, but for pressure dynamics. They were used to take advantage of the pressure of the solar wind to help keep the spacecraft stable.

IIRC, the stabilizing force was so minuscule that follow-on probes omitted this kind of feature. They weren't worth the weight penalty. Now that we're dealing with much thicker gasses than the solar wind (with aerobraking maneuvers), adding stabilizing tabs apparently becomes worth the weight penalty.

-the other Doug
Paolo
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Apr 11 2013, 12:17 AM) *
Mariners 3 and 4 (of which only Mariner 4 survived launch) had small triangular trim tabs at the ends of its solar panels. This was not for aerodynamics, but for pressure dynamics. They were used to take advantage of the pressure of the solar wind to help keep the spacecraft stable.


the Mariner sails, just like solar sails (IKAROS etc) exploit the radiation pressure of solar photons, which has nothing to do with the solar wind
kwan3217
About the angled panels: As a previous poster said, the panels are angled so that the craft is stable when flying through the atmosphere. What no one has noted is why it needs to be stable. Maven is NOT going to aerobrake. It goes initially into a 35-hour highly elliptical orbit, but after a couple of days it performs another powered maneuver to lower the period from 35 hours to 4.5 hours, all in one burn.

The spacecraft performs periodic deep dips, to allow the instruments on board to touch, smell, and taste the atmosphere. It dips in to the upper atmosphere, as low as the scientists could convince the engineers to go, stays low for a couple of (4.5 hour) orbits, then raises periapse back out of the atmosphere. It does this several times (5 times planned for the prime 1-earth-year mission) because the orbit precesses such that the periapse latitude changes, and therefore the spacecraft can deep-dip at a variety of latitudes.

So, the panels are angled to be stable, and it needs to be stable not for aerobraking but for deep dips.

Also, the science orbit is not optimal for relay, and the relay orbit is not optimal for science. At some point, the plan is to maneuver from an orbit more friendly to science to an orbit more friendly to relay, for sure after the 1-earth-year prime mission is complete, but as late as the scientists can convince the project managers. The relay equipment on Mars Odyssey and Mars Recon Orbiter both still work fine, but they won't last forever. Maven is a backup/replacement for those.

I have never heard about a plan for a terminal deep-dip, and from what I can tell, the scientists would prefer a longer mission to going out in a blaze of glory, even if relay were not an issue.
MahFL
MAVEN was always going to serve as a relay, and it's orbit was going to be changed to enable that.
Astro0
Send your name and a message to Mars with MAVEN.

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2013/may/H...me_to_Mars.html
punkboi
I think this is the first time that names were collected for a Mars orbiter mission and not a lander/rover. I guess MAVEN wasn't getting as much attention in the public as NASA would like.
vjkane
I'm hoping someone here can help me out. I'm writing a piece for my blog on possible future planetary smallsats. I want to use MAVEN as an example of the current state-of-the-art Discovery-class mission (the rules for the Mars Scout program were very similar). I've looked all over the web, but I can't find out what the total mass of MAVEN's instruments will be. Do any of you know or have a lead of where I might look?

Thanks!
mcaplinger
QUOTE (vjkane @ Jul 8 2013, 12:40 PM) *
I'm writing a piece for my blog on possible future planetary smallsats. I want to use MAVEN as an example of the current state-of-the-art Discovery-class mission... I can't find out what the total mass of MAVEN's instruments will be.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/marsconce...4267.pdf‎ has some (not-entirely-consistent) numbers in it.

I'm not sure I would believe everything you can find about smallsats -- a lot of blue-sky hype in that area, not so much real engineering. A summary article that just echoes a lot of marketing fluff is not that valuable IMHO.
nprev
Mike, do you have any idea when they're planning to ship MAVEN to the Cape?
mcaplinger
QUOTE (nprev @ Jul 12 2013, 05:10 PM) *
Mike, do you have any idea when they're planning to ship MAVEN to the Cape?

We have no involvement in MAVEN, which has no camera. sad.gif

A quick web search found
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/pres...al-testing.html

"MAVEN is scheduled to ship from Lockheed Martin’s facility to NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in early August"
nprev
Ah; thanks. I thought that you guys were somehow involved otherwise; did not realize that MSSS was solely about imaging. Mere curiosity is all.
Paolo
a long article on MAVEN in the latest issue of Aviation Week:
Maven Will Study Loss Of Martian Atmosphere
Cruzeiro do Sul
Hi Paolo.
I'm a little worried about Maven's launch. Could the governement shutdown threaten the launch?
elakdawalla
A lot of people are worried about MAVEN launch status; we're watching the situation closely, and Casey posted an update yesterday. MAVEN tweeted some specifics this morning before shutting down their Twitter for the duration; those tweets are now included at the bottom of Casey's post.

Please no speculative chitchat. On the other hand, if anyone reading here has useful, well-sourced information about MAVEN status, please post.
Cruzeiro do Sul
Thanks Emily for this fast reply. So we will stay stuned with hope.
kwan3217
It's useful, it's well sourced, but I can't reveal my source and you don't know me, so take it for what it's worth: Maven has been given orders to continue, and will not be further affected by the shutdown. This is as of this morning.
Cruzeiro do Sul
Very please to know that. Thank you very much Kwan3217 for this wonderfull news.
I have one more question: you saw, i used to participated in a french forum about space exploration, and they are worried about Maven status to. So, can i quote you in these french forum or do you prefer i not?

Edit: As you said i don´t know you and this forum is for public eyes so, i presume it's not a big deal if i quote you.
kwan3217
I can now reveal my source:

QUOTE
MAVEN is required as a communications relay in order to be assured of
continued communications with the Curiosity and Opportunity rovers. The
rovers are presently supported by Mars Odyssey launched in 2001 and Mars
Reconnaissance Orbiter launched in 2005. Launching MAVEN in 2013 protects
the existing assets that are at Mars today.

A delay in the launch date by more than a week past the end of the nominal
launch period, or a delay of launch to 2016, would require additional fuel
to get into orbit. This would have precluded having sufficient fuel for
MAVEN to carry out its science mission and to operate as a relay for any
significant time. Our nominal launch
period runs from 18 November through 7 December, and we can launch as late
as about 15 December without a significant impact on our combined science
and relay activities. There is no NASA relay orbiter planned post-MAVEN.

Although the exception for MAVEN is not being done for science reasons,
the science of MAVEN clearly will benefit from this action. Launching in
2013 allows us to observe at a good time in the eleven-year solar cycle.

We have already restarted spacecraft processing at Kennedy Space Center,
working toward being ready to launch on Nov. 18. We will continue to work
over the next couple of days to identify any changes in our schedule or
plans that are necessary to stay on track.

Regards,
Bruce
--
Bruce M. Jakosky
Professor of Geological Sciences
Associate Director for Science
Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics
University of Colorado


So: The mission is being launched because of the relay for existing missions, and would have still been on hold except for that.
Explorer1
It's good news whatever reason, relay or science. A launch is a launch, after all...
Thanks for the info!
Ron Hobbs
The exemption has made the news.

Update: Mars Mission Granted Exemption

I particularly noted the last sentence: "Although work has begun again on the project, the scientists and engineers involved, who are now working overtime, are not receiving any pay."

The scientists and engineers are my heroes.

Go Maven!!!
mcaplinger
QUOTE (Ron Hobbs @ Oct 4 2013, 09:49 AM) *
I particularly noted the last sentence: "Although work has begun again on the project, the scientists and engineers involved, who are now working overtime, are not receiving any pay."

Unless the situation is different than I believe it is, the vast majority of people working on MAVEN are either LM employees or JPL employees, and their pay shouldn't be affected by the shutdown.
punkboi
MAVEN's Atlas V vehicle is ready for its Wet Dress Rehearsal tomorrow...while the DVD containing about 100,000 names plus haikus submitted online is now attached to a solar array

http://www.twitter.com/Maven2Mars
vjkane
I looked for the press kit, but didn't find one. Are they too passe for the internet era?
elakdawalla
No, they always produce them. I looked for it today too, and didn't find it. They'll post one closer to the launch date for sure.
punkboi
The Wet Dress Rehearsal has been successfully completed

https://twitter.com/NASA_LSP/status/3952655...4880769/photo/1
punkboi
MAVEN is now mated to its Atlas V launch vehicle

http://twitter.com/Maven2Mars
Paolo
QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Oct 29 2013, 02:47 AM) *
No, they always produce them. I looked for it today too, and didn't find it. They'll post one closer to the launch date for sure.


press kit is now available http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/fi...ssKit_Final.pdf
Seryddwr
Bump... just over half an hour to go. Weather board is green; all systems nominal.
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