ExoMars Options

[Rakhir]

Europe's Mars rover may need to slim down

In a meeting with the press in Paris, France, Dordain said the rover was over-burdened with instruments compared with the launch capability of the Russian Soyuz rocket that is contracted to take it aloft.

ESA members will have to either lose some of its planned instruments so it can be launched by a Soyuz, or opt for a bigger launcher, which will cost more money, he said. In 2005, ESA members earmarked €650 million ($838 million) for ExoMars.

Furthermore, the agency is not yet certain how it will get precious data from the rover back to Earth. Dordain said he was "not 100% sure" that a NASA orbiter would be able to act as a relay, and this raised the question as to whether a European craft would be needed to play the linking role.

[climber]

Europe's Mars rover may need to slim down

You know what, the simple way is to push it back another 2 years, so, they'll put it on a Vega rocket,so, they'll have to scale down the whole think so, they'll push it back another 2 years,...
I thought they've comited to an Ariane 5 launcher a long time ago
They even once said that comitment for ExoMars was OVER what they needed (too much monay ).
BTW, Spirit will be 1000 Sol OVER garenty next week.

[Guest_Analyst_*]

I always wondered how they put these many instruments into a MER rover for this budget. Plus a drill.

As for the relay orbiter: maybe MEX, pretty surely MRO, hopefully Scout 2011, MSTO 2013. I don't see this problem. I think Europe wants an own (science) orbiter after MEX (this is o.k.) and they hope to get funding if they talk about a relay problem I can't see. I am afraid they put the whole ExoMars rover in jeopardy by this move. Costs are rising and rising, schedules erodes, politics pull the plug.

Ariane V is pure overkill if you are coming from Soyus. To justify this you need a 3 ton spacecraft (orbiter and lander), see budget problems/risks above.

Analyst

[climber]

I always wondered how they put these many instruments into a MER rover for this budget. Plus a drill.

This as always surprised me too plus the fact that we (Europe) as no experience whatsoever in Rovers.

Ariane V is pure overkill if you are coming from Soyus. To justify this you need a 3 ton spacecraft (orbiter and lander), see budget problems/risks above.

You're right since a dedicated Relay-orbiter shouldn't be that heavy. Do you know how much the most upgraded Soyus version launched from Kourou can sent to Mars? And 2013 shouldn't be the best window I guess.

[edstrick]

They *were* (it seemed to me) planning to put a MSL set or equivalent of instruments on a MER size rover, more or less. I was more than skeptical. Beagle II was packed to it's gills with an unusual amount of instrumenter per kilogram of Beagle, and it looked like they were planning the same for ExoMars. It looks like a bit of engineering reality is setting in....

[ustrax]

Before any previous judgements it is better to read the Pasteur progress letters.
ALL of them.

EDITED: Oops! Forgot teh link...Here it is.

ESA's site is a treasure ark...

Yesterday started the scientific peer-review meeting at ESTEC, it ends tomorrow, after that things will get clearer...

[power]

...
Yesterday started the scientific peer-review meeting at ESTEC, it ends tomorrow, after that things will get clearer...

as far as i know the peer-review finished ok for the geophysical package GEP ...

concerning the size of exomars and the rocket selection - this is a story from last year when they found that the rover is not capable to include all intended instruments. they have two options: built a larger rover, but that brings problems how to put it in soyuz-fregat (essentially the problem is not only the weight, but also size including the airbags) or kick out some instruments. it seems that if they get funding for ariane 5, they would choose the first option. the orbiter question is kind of misunderstanding - there would be an orbiter (carrier) anyway, the only change would be that it will be (again with additional funding) equipped with scientific instruments.

[ollopa]

My spies tell me that there is some very bad news in the pipeline re ExoMars.

I understand the ExoMars baseline is being re-classified to a planetary protection IVb rather than IVc.

This means ExoMars cannot now land in a "special region". Something to do with the cost of meeting IVc standards.

Will they now re-name the mission?

[centsworth_II]

When I saw "bad news", I thought 'oh,oh... cuts in instrumentation,
or *shudder* a threat of cutting the entire mission. To me,
any place on Mars can be made interesting with the right instruments.
So, just as long as a fully loaded ExoMars gets to Mars, I'll be happy.

[ustrax]

Here are the classifications:
"Missions to Mars

Category IV for Mars is subdivided into IVa, IVb, and IVc:

Category IVa. Lander systems not carrying instruments for the investigations of extant martian life are restricted to a biological burden no greater than Viking lander pre-sterilization levels

Category IVb. For lander systems designed to investigate extant martian life, all of the requirements of Category IVa apply, along with the following requirement:

The entire landed system must be sterilized at least to Viking post-sterilization biological burden levels, or to levels of biological burden reduction driven by the nature and sensitivity of the particular life-detection experiments, whichever are more stringent

OR

The subsystems which are involved in the acquisition, delivery, and analysis of samples used for life detection must be sterilized to these levels, and a method of preventing recontamination of the sterilized subsystems and the contamination of the material to be analyzed is in place.

Category IVc. For missions which investigate martian special regions even if they do not include life detection experiments, all of the requirements of Category IVa apply, along with the following requirement."

From here.

EDITED: Doesn't seem like it is not allowed to and in special regions, just that they have to take more severe sterilization measures...or this or my english is failing me...

[centsworth_II]

... just that they have to take more severe sterilization measures...

But this is the kind of "just" that can lead to cost overruns, cuts in
science, or worse. If the resolution is going to a "less interesting"
place. I won't be as disappointed as I would be with major science
cuts. And what at first appears uninteresting can hold some surprises.

[ustrax]

But this is the kind of "just" that can lead to cost overruns, cuts in
science, or worse. If the resolution is going to a "less interesting"
place. I won't be as disappointed as I would be with major science
cuts. And what at first appears uninteresting can hold some surprises.

Here's the definition of "special region":

"A Special Region is defined as a region within which terrestrial organisms are likely to propagate, OR a region which is interpreted to have a high potential for the existence of extant martian life forms.

Given current understanding, this is apply to regions where liquid water is present or may occur. Specific examples include but are not limited to:

-Subsurface access in an area and to a depth where the presence of liquid water is probable

-Penetrations into the polar caps

-Areas of hydrothermal activity."

Dear centsworth_II, I can't see how this re-classification can imply the elimination of special regions as ExoMars target...am I missing something here? By my understanding as long as the measures are adopted they can land it at any location "special" or not.

[centsworth_II]

By my understanding as long as the measures are adopted they can land it at any location "special" or not.

I'm certainly not the one to go to for expert advice on this, but....The special region measures are what
makes for a class IVc mission. Deciding a mission is not to be class IVc indicates to me that it has been
decided not to take these measures, so the mission will not be able to go to a "special region".

[ustrax]

The special region measures are what makes for a class IVc mission.

My english misleads me...
I believe you are correct...Even if landing on a non special region ExoMars will turn it into one...

[centsworth_II]

Hopefully ExoMars will land in a region that was
VERY SPECIAL millions of years ago, even if today
it is dry.