MGS in Trouble, Formerly: MGS in safe mode Options

[Guest_Analyst_*]

Did nobody notice this:

Ground Team Stays Busy on 10th Anniversary of NASA Mars Launch

Ten year after launch, there is some trouble with a solar array motor and a comm problem probably resulting from this and entering safe mode. Nothing dramatic yet, but something to follow closely.

There are other things than MRO and MER

Analyst

[Guest_PhilCo126_*]

Well losing it wouldn't be good for the already loaded communications relays ...
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0611/08mgs/

[tuvas]

Well losing it wouldn't be good for the already loaded communications relays ...
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0611/08mgs/

I would think it would help, one less mission to keep track of. Not that I'm saying I want MGS dead, just that if it were to be dead, it would make life easier for the DSN people.

[ElkGroveDan]

I would think it would help, one less mission to keep track of. Not that I'm saying I want MGS dead, just that if it were to be dead, it would make life easier for the DSN people.

I bet Mike Caplinger would disagree with you.

[tedstryk]

It would be a real loss to have this happen now. With MARCI taking over the role that MOC's wide angle global images have filled for so long, it would be nice to have some overlapping coverage. Not to mention having TES and passive MOLA coverage overlapping MRO. And, as for MOC high resolution, the amount of the planet covered by MOC so far and what HIRISE can hope to cover is a small percentage, so more would be very helpful. I hope the mission continues until it either breaks down (lets hope it hasn't) or has instrument failures that render it useless.

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn10...mars-probe.html

From reading this it seems that currently all communications have been lost and they don't know if it is in safe mode at all.

Interestingly they might try and observe MGS with MRO

[djellison]

Well - it would be a very cool picture from HiRISE....but I hope we don't have to see it and that they can get MGS back online.

Doug

[lyford]

Or this could all be a plot to get an orbital portrait of MGS....
I agree with Doug, but almost hope that we get contact established just after the imaging:
"Never mind on that HiRiSE shot... what? Already taken? Just put it over there on the front page of the NASA portal then..."

[tuvas]

I'm impressed with this news source, after hearing about it, I looked in the archives to see if we had been contacted about the possibility, it hasn't been for very long that it has been the case... But, HiRISE has been contacted in some kind of official capacity to perhaps image MGS, all I can say is, it would be quite a trick... Not only for it's dificultly, but also it's timing. Still it would be cool;-) We're already the first to photograph a rover on another planet that's confirmed beyond anyone's doubt, why not add a satellite to the mix (Which I do recall has been done).

[elakdawalla]

Indeed it has been done -- one of the many landmark accomplishments of MGS.
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/19/

--Emily

[ElkGroveDan]

We're already the first to photograph a rover on another planet that's confirmed beyond anyone's doubt

How could there be any doubt with MOC image below, especially since Opportunity's EXACT position at the time was known?



http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/01/24/

[tuvas]

How could there be any doubt with MOC image below, especially since Opportunity's EXACT position at the time was known?

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/01/24/

I stand corrected, but we do still have the best picture ;-)

[Guest_Analyst_*]

Better see a mission end this way than by a shortage of funding. Even better to see it going on.

Analyst

[slinted]

To head off any freak-out about the potential impact on the MER relays, keep in mind that MGS is doing only minor relay duty compared to Mars Odyssey. I don't know if more recent data has been published, but as of January 05, only 7% of the rover data came down through MGS ( see "The Care and Feeding of the MER GDS")

[djellison]

As I understand it - relays are JUST Odyssey now and have been for a long time...i.e. MGS stopped doing relay before the first solar conjunction.

Meanwhile from New Scientist

"If the spacecraft does not receive commands from Earth for seven days in a row, it is programmed to stop whatever it is doing and try to transmit a signal to Earth using its high gain antenna. This could happen at about 0014 GMT on Friday (1614 PST on Thursday), so NASA will be listening for a signal from MGS's high gain antenna at that time."

http://space.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/wspace?t...=1&showsc=1

That would have been a Canberra pass.

Doug

[volcanopele]

"If the spacecraft does not receive commands from Earth for seven days in a row, it is programmed to stop whatever it is doing and try to transmit a signal to Earth using its high gain antenna. This could happen at about 0014 GMT on Friday (1614 PST on Thursday), so NASA will be listening for a signal from MGS's high gain antenna at that time."

http://space.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/wspace?t...=1&showsc=1

That would have been a Canberra pass.

Doug

AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! So that what my problem is!!!

[djellison]

Oh boy.....and we thought Jason hated Mars before......

Doug

[ugordan]

Please don't tell me the Cassini periapsis data is being trashed for MGS contingency operations!

[djellison]

I'm sure somewhere someone's thinking "well - that makes us even for when Cassini took our DSN time when it had a problem"



Doug

[nprev]

So no news from the Canberra pass?

[volcanopele]

Please don't tell me the Cassini periapsis data is being trashed for MGS contingency operations!

I think so.

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Maybe that's why there hasn't been any new images from Opportunity for about 48 hours too.

[djellison]

I'm not sure this should be impacting other Mars ops (it may be though...perhaps for AM DFE Uplinks?)

MRO has been busy getting uplinks from the ground :

CODE

0846955496:8 2006-306T17:24:38 ri2832 d:/seq/ssr_patch_load                    RELATV 59734C99
0846957409:8 2006-306T17:56:31 ri3294 d:/seq/d_seq_fs8477_pre_install          RELATV 76DA90B4
0846962269:8 2006-306T19:17:31 ri2010 d:/seq/cmic_install_c1a                  RELATV EDA73776
0846962834:8 2006-306T19:26:56 ri2011 d:/seq/cmic_install_c2a                  RELATV 794BDE45
0846963083:8 2006-306T19:31:05 ri3295 d:/seq/d_seq_fs8477_install              RELATV 20D3225E
0846963641:8 2006-306T19:40:23 ri2012 d:/seq/cmic_install_c1b                  RELATV 8D52E268
0846963800:8 2006-306T19:43:02 ri2833 d:/seq/ssr_patch_install                 RELATV 990A0299
0846964222:8 2006-306T19:50:04 ri2013 d:/seq/cmic_install_c2b                  RELATV F6F3EF04
0846965371:8 2006-306T20:09:13 ri3299 d:/seq/special_shr_tlm_start             RELATV 71EF60E0
0846968988:8 2006-306T21:09:30 ri3296 d:/seq/d_seq_fs8477_cleanup              RELATV C7D000A0
0846969171:8 2006-306T21:12:33 ri3196 d:/seq/ssr_patch_mod_checksum            RELATV  866AEFC
0847057977:8 2006-307T21:52:39 ri3452 d:/seq/mcs_scan_mer_relay                ABSLTE A111D834
0847058078:8 2006-307T21:54:20 ri2593 d:/seq/d_pat_fs7782_cleanup              RELATV C2EEE77F
0847313015:8 2006-310T20:43:17 ri3423 d:/seq/mcs_frz_mer_relay                 ABSLTE FFC5C6D9
0847396357:8 2006-311T19:52:19 ri3460 d:/seq/psp_itl_init_001_1a               RELATV FEEAA81F
0847402100:8 2006-311T21:28:02 ri3468 d:/seq/conjunct_deconfig                 RELATV DD892AFF
0847403060:8 2006-311T21:44:02 ri3466 d:/seq/marci_dma_checkout                RELATV 57DBBCCB
0847500901:8 2006-313T00:54:43 ri3414 d:/seq/flat_field_cal_desat              ABSLTE 671D3E49
0847501410:8 2006-313T01:03:12 ri3485 d:/seq/delete_hir_mods_lgo               RELATV CC601643
0847501619:8 2006-313T01:06:41 ri3484 d:/seq/mcs_flat_field_seq                ABSLTE 9E42E171

And infact - you can see a huge swathe of MGS uplinks just today...

CODE

  mi2142 94 STLGT1 2006-314T01:41:04.8 2006-314T01:41:44.7 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T01:41:56.0 2006-314T01:42:35.9 Radiated
  mi2142 94 STLGT1 2006-314T02:20:25.4 2006-314T02:21:05.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T02:21:20.4 2006-314T02:22:00.3 Radiated
  mi2132 94 STLGT2 2006-314T03:39:15.4 2006-314T03:39:55.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T03:40:14.1 2006-314T03:40:54.0 Radiated
  mi2132 94 STLGT2 2006-314T04:17:58.8 2006-314T04:18:38.8 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T04:18:52.4 2006-314T04:19:32.4 Radiated
  mi2142 94 STLGT1 2006-314T05:36:49.8 2006-314T05:37:29.8 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T05:37:45.5 2006-314T05:38:25.4 Radiated
  mi2142 94 STLGT1 2006-314T06:15:39.8 2006-314T06:16:19.7 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T06:16:38.4 2006-314T06:17:18.3 Radiated
  mi2123 94 SRSM2N 2006-314T08:15:22.4 2006-314T08:16:02.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T08:16:31.5 2006-314T08:17:11.4 Radiated
  mi2142 94 STLGT1 2006-314T09:32:33.4 2006-314T09:33:13.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T09:33:56.6 2006-314T09:34:36.5 Radiated
  mi2142 94 STLGT1 2006-314T10:14:28.4 2006-314T10:15:08.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T10:15:48.1 2006-314T10:16:28.1 Radiated
  mi2132 94 STLGT2 2006-314T11:29:04.4 2006-314T11:29:44.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T11:30:22.8 2006-314T11:31:02.7 Radiated
  mi2132 94 STLGT2 2006-314T12:09:26.4 2006-314T12:10:06.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T12:11:10.6 2006-314T12:11:50.5 Radiated
  mi2142 94 STLGT1 2006-314T13:27:16.4 2006-314T13:27:56.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T13:28:39.1 2006-314T13:29:19.0 Radiated
  mi2142 94 STLGT1 2006-314T14:06:55.4 2006-314T14:07:35.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T14:08:27.4 2006-314T14:09:07.3 Radiated
  mi2132 94 STLGT2 2006-314T15:25:51.4 2006-314T15:26:31.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-314T15:26:57.3 2006-314T15:27:37.3 Radiated

Mars Odyssey is also getting Uplink...

CODE

  cn2031 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-311T22:06:26.8 2006-311T22:06:28.1 Radiated
  cn2031 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-311T22:06:28.1 2006-311T22:06:29.5 Radiated
  cn2031 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-311T22:06:29.5 2006-311T22:06:30.8 Radiated
  cn2031 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-311T22:06:30.8 2006-311T22:06:32.1 Radiated
  cn2031 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-311T22:06:32.1 2006-311T22:06:33.4 Radiated
  cn2031 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-311T22:06:33.4 2006-311T22:06:34.7 Radiated
  cn2031 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-311T22:06:34.7 2006-311T22:06:36.0 Radiated
  cn2031 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-311T22:06:36.0 2006-311T22:06:36.3 Radiated
  cn2031 53        FILE_COPY 2006-311T22:06:36.6 2006-311T22:06:37.1 Radiated
  cn2031 53      FILE_DELETE 2006-311T22:06:37.1 2006-311T22:06:37.5 Radiated
  cn2031 53 THEMIS_FILE_LOAD 2006-311T22:06:37.5 2006-311T22:06:37.8 Radiated
  ce2632 53  FSW_OBJ_INITIAL 2006-312T09:07:04.6 2006-312T09:07:05.1 Radiated
  ce2632 53  FSW_OBJ_INITIAL 2006-312T15:40:39.2 2006-312T15:40:39.8 Radiated
  ce2629 53  FSW_OBJ_INITIAL 2006-312T18:44:48.6 2006-312T18:44:49.1 Radiated
  ce2632 53  FSW_OBJ_INITIAL 2006-312T19:33:54.6 2006-312T19:33:55.1 Radiated
  ce2634 53  FSW_OBJ_INITIAL 2006-312T22:31:37.8 2006-312T22:31:38.4 Radiated
  ce2632 53  FSW_OBJ_INITIAL 2006-313T07:46:20.5 2006-313T07:46:21.1 Radiated
  ce2632 53  FSW_OBJ_INITIAL 2006-314T13:47:52.5 2006-314T13:47:53.1 Radiated
  cn2032 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-314T13:54:31.2 2006-314T13:54:32.5 Radiated
  cn2032 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-314T13:54:32.5 2006-314T13:54:33.8 Radiated
  cn2032 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-314T13:54:33.8 2006-314T13:54:35.1 Radiated
  cn2032 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-314T13:54:35.1 2006-314T13:54:36.4 Radiated
  cn2032 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-314T13:54:36.4 2006-314T13:54:37.7 Radiated
  cn2032 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-314T13:54:37.7 2006-314T13:54:39.1 Radiated
  cn2032 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-314T13:54:39.1 2006-314T13:54:40.4 Radiated
  cn2032 53        FILE_LOAD 2006-314T13:54:40.4 2006-314T13:54:41.6 Radiated
  cn2032 53        FILE_COPY 2006-314T13:54:41.9 2006-314T13:54:42.4 Radiated
  cn2032 53      FILE_DELETE 2006-314T13:54:42.4 2006-314T13:54:42.8 Radiated

Today is 2006-314 (currently 16:48)

Several uplinks have been sent to MGS..I've found what they are by googling around a little
STLGT1 : Swith to Low Gain Antenna 1 for Transmit.
STRPAN : Turn TWTA beam on
STLGT2 : Switch to LGA 2 for Transmit.

The fact that they cycle through them again and again is perhaps suggestive that they're not getting anything sensible back?


Doug

[ugordan]

I think so.

!%$R#%&$%/% !!!!!
Any possibility to stop Cassini from overwriting them and replay them later?

[volcanopele]

!%$R#%&$%/% !!!!!
Any possibility to stop Cassini from overwriting them and replay them later?

Yes.

All is well. Though still, giant laser...MGS...

[Guest_Analyst_*]

If I remember correctly they can communicate with more than one spacecraft at Mars using the same DSN dish because the antenna beam covers the whole Mars disk and beyond.

As for Cassini: It is a normal procedure that a spacecraft emergency gets priority over normal (Cassini) operations. The same about primary vs. extended missions and manned vs. unmanned missions. It's the way it should be. If they have exhausted their options, MGS is declared lost, not before.

Analyst

[nprev]

Yes.

All is well. Though still, giant laser...MGS...

Funny you should mention lasers, VP...perhaps the cancellation of the Mars Telecommunications Orbiter should be reconsidered. Lasercomm would be independent of the DSN, and free up resources.

(Yeah, I knew what you meant, though...bad planetary scientist, bad!)

[ugordan]

I'm sure somewhere someone's thinking "well - that makes us even for when Cassini took our DSN time when it had a problem"

Touche!

It is a normal procedure that a spacecraft emergency gets priority over normal (Cassini) operations. The same about primary vs. extended missions and manned vs. unmanned missions. It's the way it should be. If they have exhausted their options, MGS is declared lost, not before.

Oh, I'm perfectly aware of that and I'm not bitchslapping the DSN network for choosing recovery over data playback. It's just that it seemed to happen after a more interesting periapsis pass for Cassini that I find an unlucky coincidence.

Unlucky coincidences are what I hate.

[volcanopele]

yeah, there are contingency plans (woohoo for that). And I hope MGS is recovered, sooner rather than later. I guess it just annoying, that's all.

[djellison]

CODE

  mi2128 94 SRSWTB 2006-314T17:31:14.4 2006-314T17:31:54.3 Radiated
  mi2128 94 SRSWTB 2006-314T18:12:24.0 2006-314T18:13:03.9 Radiated

SRSWTB - no idea what that is but it's something different than the rest of the day. Twice within 42 minutes...perhaps they're trying to schedule repeated commands at times when predicts would put LGA's at a more optimal position.

Doug

[Guest_Analyst_*]

SWTB - Solar Array Wing tip brake?
SR - Switch ...??

[djellison]

Just for fun, probably highly inaccurate...if they DO do HiRISE imaging...I've seen figures of 100km smacked around which would be approx 10cm/pixel....so here's a couple of simulated views using ye-olde VRML model that's online if you google for it.

Doug

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[akuo]

You have to remember, MGS might be out of HiRise's focus at 100km. Though the focus is adjustable, I don't know if its this much adjustable, and whether they would do a major adjust right at the beginning of the PSP.

Should still look pretty good.

[djellison]

Two more of whatever those things were...followed by two SCGNT :

CODE

  mi2128 94 SRSWTB 2006-314T19:29:16.4 2006-314T19:29:56.3 Radiated
  mi2128 94 SRSWTB 2006-314T20:09:08.8 2006-314T20:09:48.7 Radiated
  mi2177 94 SCGCNT 2006-314T21:26:58.4 2006-314T21:27:38.3 Radiated
  mi2177 94 SCGCNT 2006-314T22:07:39.4 2006-314T22:08:19.3 Radiated

Doug

[tuvas]

Doug,

Where do you get that kind of info? Just curious...

Anyways, unless something drastic happens, it's looking more likely like JPL will have to take more drastic options to try and find MGS, feel free to use your imagination. Also note that everything public about the possibility of MRO photographic MGS mentions MRO, no specific instruments were mentioned.

[jamescanvin]

Have we gone past the 7 days out of contact yet?

It still seems likely to me that MGS is happily pointing her arrays at the sun and waiting for 7 days before attempting to contact Earth through the HGA, as she is programmed to do in safe mode.

[djellison]

http://mgsw3.jpl.nasa.gov/seq/MGS/rad/MGSradiation.log_nohdr

Doug

[Bubbinski]

Does this "radiation log" mean MGS is still alive?? Have they regained contact? Let's hope so!

[djellison]

It doesn't really tell us anything to be honest - it's guess work at best, but it's a list of the sequences being sent TO the spacecraft, not ones being recieved from it....and the same sequence being sent many times over would be suggestive (I would have thought) of an unresponsive spacecraft.

Lots more commands radiated overnight, including....

Reset a sun-angle timer to a different time.
that's looped a few times, and then

Turn on telementry modulation
Switch that to 10bps
then that gets looped a couple of times

They've radiated 50 commands in the last 24 hours.

Doug

[Guest_Analyst_*]

It's only guessing, and I guess they have not got telemetry back because almost every block of commands ends with "Turn on TWTA". Without a working TWTA you can't get telemetry.

Analyst

[djellison]

Well - we've had this loop of 5 commands

CODE

mi2148 94 CXSPG1 2006-315T04:00:33.3 2006-315T04:01:13.2 Radiated
  mi2149 94 CXSPG2 2006-315T04:01:31.3 2006-315T04:02:11.3 Radiated
  mi2150 94 TCM1MN 2006-315T04:02:31.4 2006-315T04:03:11.3 Radiated
  mi2151 94 TCM2MN 2006-315T04:03:47.4 2006-315T04:04:27.3 Radiated
  mi1523 94 STRPAN 2006-315T04:05:37.7 2006-315T04:06:17.7 Radiated

And it was run at.....

04:00
05:18
05:58
07:58
09:13
09:53
11:12
11:51
13:09
13:55

That's time gaps of... 78,50,120,75,40,79,39, 78 and 46 minutes. basically cycling between 80 ish and 50ish with one odd one ( perhaps a DSN handover) looks to me like they're trying at the two 'sides' of the orbit with 80ish mins being hte visible time and 40 mins being the occulted time.

Unfortunately, space.jpl.nasa.gov doesn't include Mars spacecraft in orbit, and http://mars1.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/realtime/mgs1.jpg is very very broken
Doug

[Guest_Analyst_*]

There are small variations in this 5 command pattern lately.

Could it be that MGS is in a command loss routine, switching (by itself) between different hardware components with the goal to deselect a failed one and doing this until one of the commands sent here again and again comes through?

Analyst

[Bubbinski]

Yikes...thanks for the answers. Guess we'll be waiting for the Hirise picture of MGS to tell us more. If this truly is the end, then let's salute MGS for a decade of service over Mars and a job well done.

[djellison]

My best efforts in understanding what the sequences are is limited - but there are specific, multiple references to some of them...

CXSPG1 and 2 are "Set the modulation index for 10 bps data rate" on both Box Sides XSU1 and 2.
The XSU's are cross strap units for routing telemetry to the SSR's or Telecoms.

TCM1MN and TCM2MN turns telemetry modulation on for MOT 1 and 2
The MOT's are Mars Orbiter Transponders

STRPAN turns on the TWTA.

To try and put it all in to context - attached is an extract from http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/pdf/SE012V1.PDF

I wish someone from the MGS team would do a HiBlog type effort The money just isn't around for good outreach with the older missions I guess.

Doug

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[mcaplinger]

I wish someone from the MGS team would do a HiBlog type effort The money just isn't around for good outreach with the older missions I guess.

So which did you want, good outreach or a HiBlog type effort?

Seriously, if somebody was blogging instead of working on recovering the spacecraft, I'd fire their ass.

You're doing just about as good a job with the radiation log as I could; I hope they don't yank it off the web. I am not empowered to discuss spacecraft operations publicly; inquiries have to be directed to JPL.

MGS is either power-positive right now, in which case we will get it back eventually, or it's not, in which case it's dead and gone. Not much else to explain.

[ElkGroveDan]

Thanks for weighing in Mike. Anything you can share with us as events transpire would be appreciated. Even just a quick posting of an emoticon when you get some news.

[climber]

I think I get the point from Mike and had not doubt they try the maximum.
Nevertheless, I'd like also to point out how badly needed are Doug's updates. Once you're on UMSF, you realise that you're not alone to consider Spacecrafts as an entity you're familiar with. They're not "persons" but they're no longer inert objects, they definitively have a kind of soul.
So, when something go wrong, you WANT to know and since the Internet exist you can actualy try to look for news...and soon you realise that the best place is here, at UMSF. This is because all of us share the same passion for the adventure/exploration AND because we know that some of us are ABLE to find the place where the information is.
OK, we only talk to MGS with no reply so far and, as Mike says, it's either power positive or not, but knowing what JPL does is badly needed. Just think about how we'll be the day when the first rover will not show anymore. Are you gona give up the first day or switch to the other one and try to forget? I don't think so, and I'm sure the new trait called "xxx doesn't respond anymore" will have more hit everyday than all the other traits of UMSF and this will be untill JPL Officialy give up.
Thanks again Doug for your dedication and thanks to Mike to give us your insider view. I back you guys.

[djellison]

Well - reading the logs from overnight - there were about four hours of a different commanding sequence which included two references to the HGA (I can't see the sequences defined anywhere unfortunately) but since then - it's been the same CXSPG1, CXSPG2,TCM1MN,TCM2MN, STRPAN. If I had to guess a diagnosis - I'd say that they tried something different (perhaps based on predicts of spacecraft attitude) , had no results, and then resorted to the baseline sequencing.

Thanks for the input Mike - as with all such things the longer we know nothing the worse the situation seems.

Doug

[diane]

Keeping in mind that SOHO was out of service for more than a year, let's keep in mind that many things are still possible.

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/operations/Recovery/

[djellison]

Well - no updates to the log for 14 hours....most likely reason being that the script that adds things to the log is either broken, or intentionally turned off.

Doug

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Maybe they don't want people to know what they're doing

[djellison]

Well - I found http://mgsw3.jpl.nasa.gov/seq/ which includes lots of similar info just by googling for "UHF Relay" - I can't believe that JPL would unintentionally allow that information to be out and about and so easy to find - indeed some parts are marked as being removed due to ITAR......but then it wouldn't be the first time that JPL would have let something be online that shouldn't have been. It wouldn't be beyond belief to have JPL stop updates going to that site because they didn't want people ( i.e. me ) reading it.

Doug

[nprev]

Just out of curiosity, what is MGS' consumable status? Reason I ask is that I hope it isn't burning fuel trying to reacquire Earth if that turns out not to be the appropriate course of action.

[djellison]

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/lofiver...x.php/t902.html

"As of 05-153 (06/02/05) MGS fuel consumption is 3.3 g/day, with 9.15 kg of usable fuel remaining. At this consumption rate, the usable fuel will support operations into 2013."


Doug

[nprev]

Much better than I'd hoped....thanks, Doug!

[Norm Hartnett]

Keeping in mind that SOHO was out of service for more than a year, let's keep in mind that many things are still possible.

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/operations/Recovery/

Lets not forget that this craft managed aerobraking with a busted wing, this bird is tough and the team backing her is the best.

Thanks very much for this site. I am usually hanging out at NASAspaceflight.com arguing about the VSE but when I heard about MGS having having problems I was very happy to find this site. For some reason MGS has always been one of my favorite birds, courage in the face of adversity or something I guess. I am drinking coffee out of my authentic JPL MGS mug and thinking good thoughts.

[mcaplinger]

"As of 05-153 (06/02/05) MGS fuel consumption is 3.3 g/day...

Unfortunately this is in the normal mapping attitude. In nearly all safe mode orientations it won't apply, and in some safe modes, it uses thruster control instead of reaction wheel control and will consume fuel even faster. But we are still talking fairly low consumption rates; it's not like it's spinning wildly about looking for Earth. Its normal response to faults is to get the solar arrays pointed at the sun and then spin slowly about the sun line, awaiting commands. There are a few complicating factors: first, the whole problem started with a stuck solar array (one of two); second, the spacecraft goes into solar and Earth eclipse on every orbit; and third, the low-gain transmitter antennas are both up on the articulated HGA electronics box, so there are some orientations of the HGA that could block one or the other of the LGTs from view from Earth. The low-gain receivers are down on the body of the spacecraft and do not articulate.

Compiled from public sources: see http://pds-geosciences.wustl.edu/missions/...og/insthost.txt and http://klabs.org/richcontent/Reports/Failu...erver_11_93.pdf

[nprev]

Hmm...okay, thanks very much for the elucidation, M.

Is it possible that the array is stuck in such a fashion that it's interfering with the HGA in between eclipse periods? I assume that MGS maintains inertial lock with respect to Mars nadir duing normal ops. If this scenario was true, then we might catch a break in a week or two due to the relative orbital motion between Earth & Mars (maybe longer...I think that we're in the middle of that long, slow distant "catch-up" phase between the two orbits).

[mcaplinger]

Is it possible that the array is stuck in such a fashion that it's interfering with the HGA in between eclipse periods? I assume that MGS maintains inertial lock with respect to Mars nadir duing normal ops.

With an array stuck I think MGS would immediately leave the nadir-fixed orientation, since the array would be unable to track the sun, as it would need to do. Unfortunately I don't know too much about the safing mode that is entered with a stuck SA gimbal; for example, what pointing of the HGA is commanded in that mode.
(Most of what I know is left over from Mars Observer, and the HGA never got deployed on that mission.)

[nprev]

I see. That sounds like a potentially much more serious situation, then; hopefully, it's entirely notional.

[djellison]

Well - reading the logs for MODY and MRO - I think they've turned off the updates to the webpage as they have no radiated files since before the last MGS log entry

Doug

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

Still no contact yet

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn10...rs-orbiter.html

Late on Wednesday, MRO will try to determine MGS's location by taking a picture with a low resolution camera. Using this information, MRO will take another image of MGS on Friday using its High Resolution Imaging Experiment (HiRISE) – the most powerful camera ever sent to Mars.

The HiRISE image should be detailed enough to determine how MGS is oriented in space and how its solar arrays are positioned.

[nprev]

Whoa! Now there's a powerful means of hopefully resolving the problem...the pics should eliminate many possible failure modes. Thanks for the update, Sunspot.

[Stu]

Typical. Frakking typical!

For years we've been getting sensational pictures from Mars Global Surveyor, breathtaking images of martian features, dust-storms, the whole planet itself. We've seen gullies, craters, valleys and gorges in more detail than ever before. The probe just reached its tenth anniversary, an amazing achievement...

All that with hardly a nod of the head from the BBC.

But now, following the usual "bad news from space is the only news worth covering" guidelines, this morning, Kate Silverton - bless her cute, punky hair, elfin face and trendy square framed glasses... okay, I'm a fan... - is telling everyone on Breakfast TV about the "ailing probe", trotting out the usual "lost in space" cliches.

Not happy.

[paxdan]

Typical. Frakking typical!

MGS images Odyssey
Digital data puts Mars on Map
Mapping Mars
Its Springtime on Mars
MGS enters Phase 2
Glitch forces mars probe shut off 2005
Shadow of a Martian Moon
Image may be polar lander
Evening Clouds on a Martian Volcano
Mars more active than thought
Mars May be Changing
Earth as seen from Mars by MGS

I could go on, however, just one more link Exploring Mars: In depth

What's wrong with a bit of coverage from the beeb at what may be EOM?

[Borek]

Typical. Frakking typical!

For years we've been getting sensational pictures from Mars Global Surveyor, breathtaking images of martian features, dust-storms, the whole planet itself. We've seen gullies, craters, valleys and gorges in more detail than ever before. The probe just reached its tenth anniversary, an amazing achievement...

All that with hardly a nod of the head from the BBC.

You are overreacting. BBCis one of the few news agencies that give quite frequent updates about planetary missions on their web front page.

Borek

[Rakhir]

Still no contact yet

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn10...rs-orbiter.html

In the article above, they plan to try to activate MGS UHF transmitter, listen for the carrier from the MERs and relay the results thanks to Mars Odyssey.
But what prevents listening the MGS carrier directly from Mars Odyssey ?
Incompatible frequencies or orbits ?

[Stu]

You are overreacting. BBCis one of the few news agencies that give quite frequent updates about planetary missions on their web front page.

Borek

I am not over-reacting Borek. I was talking about TV coverage, probably should have clarified that (but come on, it was 6.30am!! ) Re-read my post please, I didn't mention websites. The web coverage is usually excellent, and I probably should have mentioned that. My bad. But we all know that TV cverage does tend to descend, vulture-like, on bad news stories.

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

If they do manage to recover it, I doubt it will make the news at all.

[djellison]

Calm down boys....calm down.


Anyway - back to the actual topic in hand...

Odyssey or MRO to MGS UHF comms - I've not thought of that but it should be possible - however I imagine that the signal strength pattern from the UHF antenna would require a serious spacecraft manouver for it to work.

Doug

[Guest_Analyst_*]

Odyssey or MRO to MGS UHF comms - I've not thought of that but it should be possible - however I imagine that the signal strength pattern from the UHF antenna would require a serious spacecraft manouver for it to work.

Very interesting idea. But first you have to turn on the UHF receiver on MGS (including MOC). And you can do this via X-band only (I assume UHF and all instruments are off in safe mode.). I wonder if you can get commands to MGS via UHF from Odyssey or MRO. But why do this if you can command via X-band? So you need X-band commanding first, and if you have X-band commanding you don't need UHF (Except maybe to save power?).

Analyst

[djellison]

The thinking behind it is probably like this :

We are sending X-Band signals, but we do not know if it is getting them as we see no evidence in return

Most likely option - the vehicle is incapacitated and/or not recieving the signals.
Less likely - the vehicle is recieving them but for some reason can not transmit on X-Band

In the second case - if we uplink a command to transmit on UHF which Spirit/Opportunity might hear, then we will have evidence of life onboard MGS.

Basically, you start at the top of the fault tree and cross out all the different failure options until you've crossed them all out....at which point you go out, have a drink, toast MGS, and then move on.

Anyone who followed the MPL post-landing story will have been through this...it's painful, as you get to the increasingly unlikely failure modes, but on which you end up pinning more and more of your hopes.

Doug

[jaredGalen]

Using the UHF, is it to try and send something from the rovers to MGS and then try and relay via Odyssey or use the rovers to try and listen in to see if the MGS is transmitting anything via UHF and then relay the results via Odyssey?

I read an article that mentioned it this morning but can's see it now

Edit: Ah, never mind

The beacon signal would not contain any information, but its detection would at least indicate that the spacecraft is alive and able to respond to some commands. If the rovers heard the signal, they could notify another NASA orbiter

[djellison]

No - we'd have to use the DSN to command MGS to turn on it's UHF transmitter during a rover flyover...and then the rovers would report back to see if it worked....I MAY be wrong but I don't believe that MGS can be commanded via UHF.

Also - Stanford might get out their UHF antenna and see if a UHF carrier from MGS can be seen here on the ground....sometimes it gets a signal from Mars Orbiters, sometimes it doesn't.

Doug

[Guest_Analyst_*]

Less likely - the vehicle is recieving them but for some reason can not transmit on X-Band

In the second case - if we uplink a command to transmit on UHF which Spirit/Opportunity might hear, then we will have evidence of life onboard MGS.

Sadly not very likely , but this makes sense.

I followed MPL on CNN, all the press conferences, MGA pointing problems, sky scanning nada nada nada.

Analyst

[tuvas]

Let me just pipe in and say from what I've been able to understand, the space.com article is the far more likely approach to what will happen. http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/061114_mgs_mro.html . It seems to cover the main concerns better than the other articles posted by other news sources.

[ElkGroveDan]

Anyone who followed the MPL post-landing story will have been through this...

....that was excruciating. I never want to go through that again.

[Marz]

....that was excruciating. I never want to go through that again.

Yeah, like with Beagle...

It's so easy to take orbiters for granted, but it really shows what a knife edge dance it is to keep power and communications and camera orientation all working without a hitch.

On an quasi-unrelated note, I wonder how much it would cost to build some redundancy into the DSN. Every blue moon, there seems to be some mission-impacting loss of communication - either a mouse has chewed through a cable, or a space probe goes on the fritz during the comm window for another mission, etc... it almost seems like an achillies heel that one day could really cause a major loss of data. Maybe it's time to build some extra nodes, like in Iceland and/or south Argentina or something?

[Stu]

Yeah, like with Beagle...

Oh, that was a horrible, dragging, endless, check-Ceefax-and-websites-every-five-minutes Christmas Day.... ((shudders at the memory))...

[djellison]

Maybe it's time to build some extra nodes, like in Iceland and/or south Argentina or something?

Or maybe it's just time the DSN got the investment it deserves to install multiple 70m assets at each station, or the arrays of mass produced 12m dishes suggested at IAC.
http://www.iac-paper.org/abstractcd/2006/a...-06-B3.1.03.pdf



Doug

[elakdawalla]

See also my notes from the Bob Preston talk at last May's OPAG meeting:
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00000570/

Upgrading infrastructure isn't a sexy project, but deep space communications really do represent a bottleneck, and the lack of upgrades to the DSN is harming our ability to make the most of our deep space assets. It's time for those arrays of 12-meter antennas to be built -- that would give the DSN so much more flexibility.

--Emily

[djellison]

"Spitzer, which trails Earth in its orbit, now needs the 70-meter dishes."

I did NOT know that - wow....that's a serious stretch on resources - I'd forgotten about that write up - it reads pretty much the same as the one I saw at IAC really.

Doug

[odave]

While I'm very concerned about MGS, I'm not feeling the anxiety or anguish like I did with MPL and Beagle. To use a human analogy, while then death of anyone is tragic, the death of a small child seems especially so considering the loss of all that potential - a whole life never realized. If MGS has passed, I'll be sad and lift my glass to her accomplishments. I've got my fingers crossed, though!

[Guest_Sunspot_*]

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/061114_mgs_mro.html

There’s a feeling that maybe the well-used MGS felt it was time to sign off.

On the 10th anniversary of MGS in space—November 7—that’s the same day that MRO cranked up its primary science tasks.

“It really seems like there’s some fate involved in this,” Sidney said. “MGS knew it was time to retire.”


awwwwwww

[MarkL]

It's like losing an old friend. I remember watching the aerobraking page way back when and following MGS' progress. It's the mission that really "cracked open" Mars for us to explore in my view. And many of us were able to actually tell the thing what to take photos of which was phenomenal. Lets hope it can be recovered as MOC is still a terrific instrument. It does, though seem like handing off the baton, given the timing.

[tuvas]

I should also add in that if this process can be accomplished, it will be extremely difficult, and thus there isn't a fixed day assigned to make the attempt to photograph MGS, only that the attempt should be made reasonably soon, but not to disturb any critical science/ Phoenix endevours.

[Decepticon]

I was hoping they would use the last part of this funded mission to explore PHOBOS.

[mcaplinger]

I should also add in that if this process can be accomplished, it will be extremely difficult...

What's so difficult about it? Lookheed-Martin designs the slew and they tell you when to start imaging. At least, that's how the Odyssey image by MGS was done. Doesn't sound too hard to me.

[ugordan]

One thing Emily pointed out in her blog is that the s/c has been out of contact for 9 days. Its orbit is not exactly nailed down anymore. HiRISE attempts to image the predicted locations might be futile, resulting in huge amounts of data of empty space. I'm actually pretty skeptical they'll be able to pull it off easily.

[climber]

If I understood it right they're doing a kinda long exposure and hope that MGS will show somewhere on the picture and then they can deduce where it is and shoot in the rigth direction a few days later. Did I get it right?

[mcaplinger]

HiRISE attempts to image the predicted locations might be futile, resulting in huge amounts of data of empty space.

Maybe they're planning on using some other instrument on MRO with a wider field of view first. Gee, which one could it be?

[djellison]

"We'll use HiRISE on Friday"
"We'll use CTX on Wednesday then HiRISE on Friday"
"We'll use a long exposure with HiRISE on Wednesday then a targetted observation on Friday"

The usual suspect media outlets have all reported one or more of those.....so it's been a bit confusing for the layperson.

Doug

[mcaplinger]

The usual suspect media outlets have all reported one or more of those.....so it's been a bit confusing for the layperson.

Well, I'm afraid I have nothing definitive to tell you. Note that there are lots of players and we may not know, or need to know, what other teams are doing. Plans may be changing from day to day, and the media often misquotes sources anyway. Even I might not know for sure what my own instrument will be doing and when. I'd believe that images were taken when you see the images.

[nprev]

Or maybe it's just time the DSN got the investment it deserves to install multiple 70m assets at each station, or the arrays of mass produced 12m dishes suggested at IAC.
http://www.iac-paper.org/abstractcd/2006/a...-06-B3.1.03.pdf
Doug

Not to beat a deceased equine excessively, but maybe this is a partial answer:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=3227

[mcaplinger]

Not to beat a deceased equine excessively, but maybe this is a partial answer...

How would you propose to fly antennas many tens of meters in diameter, much less duplicate, in flight-qualified form, the sensitive receivers and megawatt transmitters used by DSN stations? After all, these orbital comm relays would in general be little closer to Mars than Earth, and would then have to send the data to Earth.

[nprev]

Good questions. I'm not sure if it would be feasible with RF unless 1) we can successfully develop & deploy very large collapsable antennae (the Galileo experience was instructive), 2) advanced DSP on the receiving end of all terminals involved could compensate for much lower transmitter power outputs, and 3) flight-qualified ultra-stable transmitters with very fine output frequency resolution could be developed.

This idea would work better with lasers; something like an MTO for at least each of the inner planets would provide the necessary link between active exploration missions & the new network. This network would be used almost exclusively for data return & housekeeping, freeing up the DSN for critical activities such as resolving the current MGS anomaly, early mission support, and tracking during cruise.

EDIT: Apologies if anyone saw a smiley instead of 2) above; this was not intended as a shot against Galileo, the message board just interpreted by original use of a letter plus a parenthesis as a smiley.

[RichardLeis]

What's so difficult about it? Lookheed-Martin designs the slew and they tell you when to start imaging. At least, that's how the Odyssey image by MGS was done. Doesn't sound too hard to me.

Teeny-tiny spacecrafts, great big universe.

Ephemeris data for Mars is pretty good, though we require more recent updates prior to sending final commands to make sure our targeting is correct. Spacecraft-to-spacecraft ephemeris is not so good because of the variable atmosphere, dynamics of the Sun-Mars-MGS-MRO system, and other factors.

Sure, it can probably be done, but it will be hard, especially when there is a regular science mission ongoing with other timely observations required, and a million little things just waiting to go wrong somewhere in the complex process.

If the Odyssey imaging by MGS was easy, then wow.

[RichardLeis]

"We'll use HiRISE on Friday"
"We'll use CTX on Wednesday then HiRISE on Friday"
"We'll use a long exposure with HiRISE on Wednesday then a targetted observation on Friday"

The usual suspect media outlets have all reported one or more of those.....so it's been a bit confusing for the layperson.

Agreed. The media provides a snapshot of what things were like at a specific moment in time. The situation is dynamic, however, with scores of people and several teams involved, all in addition to the team members who really want to hear back from their pride and joy. The situation is confusing, and everyone is trying to do what they can.

[mcaplinger]

Sure, it can probably be done, but it will be hard, especially when there is a regular science mission ongoing with other timely observations required, and a million little things just waiting to go wrong somewhere in the complex process.

Sorry, not buying this. We had little difficulty imaging Odyssey with MGS, and MRO should be better in every respect than MGS (HiRISE has a wider FOV than MOC, MRO pointing control is much more accurate/stable, etc, etc.) Maybe it'll take a couple of tries, but it shouldn't be that big a deal. LMSS does most of the work anyway; they just tell you when to start imaging, no?

[tuvas]

Sorry, not buying this. We had little difficulty imaging Odyssey with MGS, and MRO should be better in every respect than MGS (HiRISE has a wider FOV than MOC, MRO pointing control is much more accurate/stable, etc, etc.) Maybe it'll take a couple of tries, but it shouldn't be that big a deal. LMSS does most of the work anyway; they just tell you when to start imaging, no?

MGS had one thing that MRO doesn't, the exact knowledge of the spacecraft to photograph. THAT is the largest problem, which the space.com article got correct.

Also, I, who work with the HiRISE team, and have been paying really close attention to what's happening, honestly can say I don't know when the picture will take place, or which instrument will do it. I'd be willing to bet that either CTX or HiRISE will be the photographers, but there again, it's a big universe and a small spacecraft.