Endeavour Crater, And again shall we conquer the Remoteness Options

[ustrax]

Opportunity is getting ready to embark on her most extraordinary journey, a true rover epic.
As information regarding how to win the distance are being collected here, and the emotional last views from Victoria Crater are being discussed here, I thought about creating a new thread that will surely become an obligatory stop as the tall peaks and other features of Endeavour start to rise in the horizon.
Here we will be able to discuss the location of features seen from the distance, references that will help us understanding better what we are seing and that will, fortunately, feed our spirit across the long sail across the Meridiani sandwaves.

Ultreya!


I give it a kick with this navcam image, comparing it with Astro0's original (beautiful...) image:

I'm sure James Canvin will correct me...



EDITED: I can't resist...I tried! I honestly tried, but it is stronger than me...so many features ahead and not a single name?!
Seriously, at Victoria we had features named after places visited by the vessel, and now for Endeavour? Assuming that Oppy will succeed on her quest will the mission keep the same policy, of naming places after Endeavour's tour? If so, there may be some names in common with Victoria...
While we are ready to leave the port once more I remembered that we could start naming, internally, (in order to have catchier landmark references... ) these features, as they loom in the horizon, after the ship's crew.
We could follow the order presented here.
Let me just edit the image up there...

[jamescanvin]

I'm sure James Canvin will correct me... ´

It's been a long time - I may have to recheck it sometime, but last time I did this (over two years ago!) I reckoned that "Cook" was the hill further to the right of where you place it. (EDIT: now as I had it in the updated version)

Great names, great thread. This is going to be fun.

James

[ilbasso]

Looking back at this thread from two years ago, I see this wonderful quote about the Big Crater from Our Fearless Leader:

For the love of god don't let a rover driver see this or we'll be attempting to jump Victoria in the rush to get there

Doug

[climber]

Great names, great thread. This is going to be fun.
James

I second this!
Rui, I was badly waiting for this trait coming from YOU and here it is!
It reminds so many memories,
it opens so many possibilities.
This is definitively going to be fun

[charborob]

We should be on the lookout also for the ridge on the West side of Endeavour. It is about half the distance of Victoria to "Cook", and seems to be quite high.

[ustrax]

This is going to be fun.

Oh yes it will...and (why wasn't I surprised?...) you have come to the rescue once more!
I've corrected the image in the first post, don't want to start with the left foot...

charborob, there was a feature to the right of Cook appearing in previous images and I believe James pointed its location...I'll check it.

climber...we meet again!

[fredk]

I give it a kick with this navcam image

Thanks for pointing out we can see Endeavour in that image, ustrax! Gosh, what an image that is. First Sputnik crater in the foreground, only 7 metres or so across. Then the gaping aperture of our old friend Victoria, at 700 or so metres across. Finally, far away in the distance, the peaks of the rim of great Endeavour, our next destination, some 22 km across! Here's an anaglyph of that view:

[jamescanvin]

Anyone remember those 'Inverse polar' images I did to match up the far rim of Victoria with the HiRISE images when we arrived?



Well I thought is was about time to dust off that technique.



Each column of the image represents one line of sight from Duck Bay across the THEMIS images - each being 0.044 degrees apart (the same as the navcam resolution) the left edge is at 45 degrees (North-East) and the right edge at 180 degrees (South)

At the top is a crop and 5x Phil-o-vision of the image Ustrax posted, According to the tracking site the centre of that image is at 108 degrees so that is where I've placed it - no fudging to make it line up required!

James

[ustrax]

James...


I like that...a lot!
It looks like I'll have to edit my file again, Hicks should be where Gore is and Gore is the solitary elevation to NE.
I'm sure other views will appear in the following days...

[Pertinax]

Thanks for pointing out we can see Endeavour in that image, ustrax! Gosh, what an image that is. First Sputnik crater in the foreground, only 7 metres or so across. Then the gaping aperture of our old friend Victoria, at 700 or so metres across. Finally, far away in the distance, the peaks of the rim of great Endeavour, our next destination, some 22 km across!

And Explorer / Sofi on the far rim -- four craters martian craters in one image. That has got to be a record of some sort!


-- Pertinax

[climber]

So James Cook () isn't Rui's Cook, correct ?

[climber]

I'm pretty sure I already said that somewhere but anyway.
I used to go to New Zealand for quite some years and always had to go to Gisborne ... which is the very place where James Cook first landed in Aotea Roa (Maori's name for New Zealand which means "the Land of the long white clouds"). So let's a feature already visible be called Young Nick's head: http://www.teara.govt.nz/1966/Y/YoungNicks...ungNicksHead/en
After New Zealand I had to go to Kauaii Island and had to go to Waimea ...which is the very place where James Cook landed in Hawaii islands.
So, Endeavour means something very special to me

[Shaka]

Is it possible that the correct term was not "Young Nick's Head", but rather "Young Nick's Headache" after he drank his "gallon of rum"?
On a more serious note, Hawaii, was also the termination point of Cook's final voyage, when he got into a disagreement with some of the locals on the Big Island. A stone monument marks the spot on the coast where "Old James' Head" rolled in this initial setback to British diplomacy. Happily, greater successes did follow, as reflected in the Union Jack that still graces one corner of the Hawaiian state flag. The other former colonies of the U.S.A. were not so cordial to British emblems.

[jamescanvin]

It looks like I'll have to edit my file again, Hicks should be where Gore is and Gore is the solitary elevation to NE.

Maybe, but I'm not sure quite how accurate the image will be. There are multiple THEMIS images which don't line up perfectly which will cause an error and I haven't reprojected the navcam image so that will be slightly off. I wouldn't rule out your original guess yet.

So James Cook () isn't Rui's Cook, correct ?

Yes Rui's modified Cook is right, that I am sure of. This analysis points to that hill, as does the different method I used on different images two years ago. To be clear my objection in post 2 was to Rui's original image which he subsequently updated.

[Guest_Bobby_*]

Does anyone have any idea how deep Endeavour Crater is compared to Victoria???

Is it lower in elevation or downhill compared to where we are at now?

[Astro0]

Not sure if this alternate view of Endeavour crater at 8 times vertical exaggeration will assist in this 'endeavour' (pun intended)


Astro0

[Phil Stooke]

That's really nice. You can see how the Meridiani Planum material drapes over the crater's northern rim and fills much of the depression. Those hills on the rim are part of the cratered terrain unit underlying the Meridiani Planum material. It would be a real coup to get to one of the rim hills.

Phil

[ustrax]

Really, really nice!

Looking at this old image (if only I could remember which was the original I have used and how many times I stretched it...) it looks like that we can identify the contour of Cook and the two following elevations to the south. I won't dare to say that I can see the crater in Cook's slope, that is probably an artifact...

I'll look at this with more attention after having a bath and a coffee...

And James...I don't think that climber was being that technical when he made reference to my "Cook"...

EDITED: Had a bath, had a coffee, had the work done...

Here's what I was talking about:

Probably wrong (from James image looks like the three elevations fit all in Cook) but the contour seems to coincide...
You'll also notest that I've named the three features with names previously used in this thread first post (already edited) but I think that it would make more sense to have the three lieutenants together at the "vessel's bridge".
In consequence I had to pick new names for the peaks in the NW, I've took the option of going for the civilians onboard Endeavour, maybe we can follow this line of thought from here on:
NW to NE - The Civilians
SW to SE - The Marines
E - The Crew

Full list here.

James...are we getting somewhere?

[Ant103]

Astro0 : I'm curious to know how do you obtain a such precise elevation of Endeavour? I really enjoy to make simulation in Terragen .

[djellison]

It's from the HRSCView website - from MEX HRSC data. Honestly, the data really isn't that good.

DOug

[jamescanvin]

James...are we getting somewhere?

This is a guess, I'm at work and don't have the time or the tools to do a proper analysis so the scale could be well off. But I would say it should be more like this...

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[climber]

For quite a while, we're going to extract as much informations of Endeavour's rim as possible from a few pixels.
I wonder if pictures (from Spirit) of the rim of Gusev can be used to better help assuming what is real and what it's not.
I'm sure we can find, in the data base, pictures of Gusev's rim at approximately the same distance, such pictures from the plain could be compared to pictures from the top of Husband's hill. I'm here assessing that the quality from the top is better than from the plain.
Later into the traverse we'll be able to compare some Victoria's features (at least the Beacon I guess) as seen from a distance to what we realy know.
Just a thought.

[climber]

This is a guess, I'm at work and don't have the time or the tools to do a proper analysis so the scale could be well off. But I would say it should be more like this...

It's visualy my feeling too... The left ridge of the summit was not matching at all in Rui's proposition but it does here.

[ustrax]

James is my hero!...


A perfect match! Guess I'll have to restrain myself before posting this ideas without checking the details carefully...
Looks like we've nailed Cook without doubts!:


BTW, new navcams and pancams are in, nothing new in the horizon, at least for my eyes, guess the driving guys will be pleased...

[jamescanvin]

A perfect match! Guess I'll have to restrain myself before posting this ideas without checking the details carefully...

Where would we be without your crazy ideas?

Keep 'em coming - with just a small dose reality we've ended up with your fantastic (and probably accurate ) last diagram.

Onwards!

J

[Astro0]

Ant103 - "I'm curious to know how do you obtain a such precise elevation of Endeavour?"
Doug - "It's from the HRSCView website - from MEX HRSC data."

Yep Ant, Doug's right - it's from the HRSCView website.
I don't claim to have any magical DEM data at my disposal.
As I've said before, I'm about pretty pictures not the hard science.

I hope too that we get some DEMs for Endeavour, as I'm sure that Doug and yourself will come up with some dazzling images and animations.

Astro0

PS: Glad to see that image might have cleared up the "which peak is that on the horizon?" mystery.

[djellison]

I've tried using that HRSC DEM for animation - and it's...how can I put this politely.

Not very good.

I'll leave it there.

[ustrax]

Where would we be without your crazy ideas?

I have no idea...Nicarágua?

Here's the latest development of my work in progress:

I'll have one of this on the wall after I give it some retouches...

[rogelio]

Hypothetical question (and pardon if this is isn’t the right thread for it) - Had we known “for certain” that Opportunity had 5 years and 25 km in her from the start – and had we had HiRise pictures of all terrain within 25 km of the landing site, how might the exploration strategy have been different? Would less time have been spent at Victoria, and would she be approaching Endeavour right now? Or perhaps the rover team would have chosen to strike out in an entirely different direction from the landing site/Endurance?

[djellison]

Hypothetical question

You could get a million different answers for that. You could say that the purgatory style dunes in HiRISE imagery would have scared them off heading south, so they would have gone in another direction completely. You could say anything really. It wouldn't be any less or more right than any other answer.

[Stu]

Ustrax,

I have nothing to contribute to this amazing game of "line up the blurs" but I just wanted to say that I don't actually care if none of your names are used in the end, if all of your diagrams turn out to be inaccurate, and all the elevations prove to be hopelessly wrong; with your energy and enthusiasm and passion, having you as our cheerleader for this adventure is like having Willy Wonka showing us around his factory.

Onwards!

[Ant103]

I've tried using that HRSC DEM for animation
(…)
Not very good.

Okay. But you already have it. Can I try?
But I will try to make an artificial bump map with picture of Endeavour.

[djellison]

Why do you need to ask me if you can try? The data's all at the HRSCView website, including an IDL based routine to turn it into easily usable formats.

[dvandorn]

...having you as our cheerleader for this adventure is like having Willy Wonka showing us around his factory.

Ooom-pa!
Ooom-pa!
Tickety-ay!
We're going to Endeavour,
We're on our way!
Ooom-pa!
Ooom-pa!
Tickety-tipple!
Let's hope we don't get
Stuck in a ripple!



-the other Doug

[Ant103]

Okay Doug, I misunderstand. Sorry.

[Phil Stooke]

Wow, Other Doug, I didn't think anybody would be able to top my poem, but you did it!

Phil

[ustrax]

I have nothing to contribute to this amazing game of "line up the blurs"

My friend, I am sure that as soon as the haze in the horizon starts dissipating and the peaks of Endeavour start calling you like a syren you will come up with something...fitting...

I don't actually care if none of your names are used in the end

Well...it worked in the past...

if all of your diagrams turn out to be inaccurate, and all the elevations prove to be hopelessly wrong

You can say that's part of my charm...can't you?
And it's always a good opportunity to give the others the chance to show what they know...

Ultreya!

[marswiggle]

Fortunately I long ago downloaded and saved some images of Endeavour peaks from exploratorium, considering that those images no more seem to be available otherwise than in the JPL site. So, I had an idea to make a couple of long baseline anaglyphs of those peaks in the horizon. The stereo baseline is about 50 m, ie. the distance between Oppy's location in sol 950 (right eye images here) and sol 955 (left eye). The baseline is wide enough to clearly distinguish between horizon features, at about 3 km distance, and Endeavour objects, at about 15-35 km distance.

The images are 2x vertically stretched. Hopefully the anaglyph form works to you.

[charborob]

Using these images, would it be possible by triangulation to evaluate the distance between Opportunity and the hills, thus confirming (or not) Ustrax's identification?

[ustrax]

Fortunately I long ago downloaded and saved some images of Endeavour peaks from exploratorium...

marswiggle! Where have those anaglyphs been all this time?!
Beautiful!
Can you provide the original images?
I am sure we can do something from it...

charborob, I am pretty sure James nailed Cook, the doubt is about the twin peaks, dubbed here Banks and Solander, but if Mr. Canvin got it right once I am following is line of work...

btw...those guys at drivability analisys are way beyond us...we're already there!

[ilbasso]

In spite of the dusty, cold weather,
We're off to explore more together!
Let's march with the band
(It's one that's unmanned)
To Ithaca! - I mean, Endeavour!

[marswiggle]

[attachment=15894:1P212969...2393L7M1.jpg]

marswiggle! Where have those anaglyphs been all this time?!
Beautiful!
Can you provide the original images?
I am sure we can do something from it...

My anaglyphs were made about 5 hours ago if I remember correct The idea of checking and using those old images just occurred to me when I saw that old strethced image sent by you.

I have a bunch of images, all dusty and cobwebby from long storage and in a complete chaos I'm afraid.. But at least I can attach the original ones here. Let's see if they suit in one post.

No they didn't but I'll send another post. (I thought it best to send complete pairs in the case I happen to have both parts of a stereo pair.)

[marswiggle]

These include the long baseline images I used (mainly those ending -R1M1 for their better quality).

[Tesheiner]

One of the peaks can be clearly seen on the today's set of pancams.


There we go!

[climber]

One of the peaks can be clearly seen on the today's set of pancams.
There we go!

We've never been so close

[ustrax]

Tesheiner...don't you ever sleep?!
I've tried to make an anaglyph out of it but it didn't seem to work out...at least...we can see it clearer!

And we still have marswiggle images to play around...let me just have some sleep...

[Phil Stooke]

Rogelio asked if Opportunity might have gone somewhere else if we had known it would last so long. Doug said there were a million possible answers. I will suggest that's not likely.

I have examined the CTX images of the region around the landing site. Truth is, there are no other enticing targets. There's a sort of ghost crater north of the landing site, but nowhere near as interesting looking as Victoria. There's some messy looking etched terrain much further north, but nowhere near as interesting-looking as the band to the south. (Actually, I think the etched terrain looked more interesting than it was.) Regardless of how long the rover might last, south was by far the best way to go.

Phil

[ElkGroveDan]

I would add to the "if we knew" possibilities, that in hindsight we might have swung to the East around the major dunes, arrived at Victoria sooner and might already be halfway to Endeavor.

Now if only my Delorean time machine would start.

[Stu]

One for our Cheerleader...

[Stu]

I know Oppy will never reach it, but I still think this mesa/butte/whateveritis down in the southern part of Endeavour deserves a really cool name...



Rui..?

[ElkGroveDan]

How about...Medusa.

[TheChemist]

How about...Medusa.

I concur. Great name Dan.

[djellison]

Medusa, whos head Persus gave to......ATHENA (our MER payload!)

[ustrax]

Is that a challenge?...Accepted!

Jiigurru (Lizard Island)

I see the head of a Varanus Gouldii (sand monitor) poking out from the sand there...maybe just a case of malfunctioning pareidolia...

And it goes towards what I was thinking about Endeavour's names, the crew for features along the rim and for features inside the crater itself I thought about using names of places visited by the vessel on its journey of exploration.

"To European eyes, Jiigurru appeared almost formidable. In August 1770, during his exploration of Australia's east coast, Lieutenant James Cook wrote, "It is mostly high land very rocky and barren except on the NW side where there are some sandy bays and low land, which last is cover'd with thin long grass trees etc the same as upon the Main(land)".

He was impressed by Gould's sand monitor (Varanus gouldii). "The only Land-animals we saw here were lizards and these seem'd to be plenty which occasioned my naming the island Lizard Island""

From here.

Do you like it?

EDITED: Here I was taking my time doing some serious research ( ) for naming properly this feature and Dan just overthrow the pile of old manuscripts and charts I had on the desk...

[Tesheiner]

I know Oppy will never reach it, <snip>

Why not?

[Stu]

Why not?

Cos after reaching the rim of Endeavour she's setting off for Valles Marineris, silly...

[climber]

I know Oppy will never reach it, but I still think this mesa/butte/whateveritis down in the southern part of Endeavour deserves a really cool name...
Rui..?

Stu, please do NOT associate in the same sentence the two words I put in bold in your post

[climber]

How about...Medusa.

Not sure it is appropriate :

[mhoward]

Medusa, whos head Persus gave to......ATHENA (our MER payload!)

One of the best (unofficial) names ever...

[eoincampbell]

Was Ithaca dropped in favor of Endeavor for Big Crater ?

[Astro0]

Ithaca is just what we've been calling the big crater for many years (long-time UMSF'ers know who's responsible for that! ) It's also the homebase for Cornell University. Endeavour is the name that the Rover teams have put forward, with the hope that it might become official.

Astro0

[Astro0]

Stu, I hope you don't mind, but your latest prose stirred me to make up a few new posters using your words.
Enjoy
Astro0

[climber]

What will we be without these two ... (not talking about craters )

[Stu]

Stu, I hope you don't mind,

Mind? As always, I'm honoured!

[charborob]

Here are some very rough straight-line distance estimates to Endeavour (names are ustrax's):
- Banks and Solander: 18 km
- closest "rim" (more like a wide bulge): 13 km
- northern tip of western ridge: 15 km

Obviously, because of the weaving between the ripples that Oppy will have to accomplish, the actual roving distance will be greater. I hope she makes it!

[ustrax]

Astro0, the image in that second poster is simply spectacular!
Definitely one of my favourites so far!

Are we here yet?...

While Oppy is renitent is saying farewell to Victoria, while the guys in the room next door are looking for solutions for surfing the dunes, while the views towards Endeavour remain there, teasing us, before the long trek, I thought that this would be a good occasion to let myself navigate in history’s waves.

Since we are headed to, presumably, visit other craters on the way to our destiny (Mini-Endurance?...), I’ve been doing some research, based on the fact that these features are being named after scientific and exploration ships.
Fascinating stories, foggy adventures, an oceanographer king, legends and discoveries have made their appearance along the way and I’ve retained the name of few of these vessels who have all the conditions to figure aside the already existing flotilla in Meridiani’s Sea of Sand.
Here they are, waiting to sail once more...:

-HMS Porcupine
-HMS Lightning
-HMS Challenger
-Talisman
-Travailleur
-Hirondelle
-Princesse-Alice
-NRP Amélia

Who knows if we will hear about them in future sols?...

[Stu]

Rui... want to share these with you...

Exultation is the going
Of an inland soul to sea,
Past the houses, past the headlands,
Into deep eternity.

- Emily Dickinson


‘Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.’

- Mark Twain

[ustrax]

Stu, impossible to imagine this mission without its lyrical side...some may disagree, or found curious all the poems, mottos and utopias but I believe that this is what makes of MER such a "human" adventure.

"Was it worth it? Everything is worth
If the soul is not small.
Who wants to go beyond the Bojador
Have to move beyond the pain.
To the Sea, God gave the danger and the abyss,
But it was there that He mirrored the sky."

Fernando Pessoa - Mar Portuguêz

I'll change some words...

"Was it worth it? Everything is worth
If the soul is not small.
Who wants to go beyond the Purgatory
Have to move beyond the pain.
To Mars, the Universe gave the danger and the abyss,
But it was there that He mirrored the will."

[Ant103]

This become a poetry room

Astro0 : great posters and great verse of Stu.

The idea of leaving Victoria Crater gives me nostalgic feelings. This is why I've made the picture, with name incrustation to the landscape of an end of a sol (bays and a fuzzy Endeavour beyond the horizon).

[Stu]

That's really nice, Ant... love the way you've put the name "Endeavour" actually beyond the horizon, I would NEVER have thought of doing that!

On the poetry thing... I sometimes worry about posting mine (or lines from other poems) here, because I am very aware that not everyone "gets it", and some people probably think this isn't actually the place for waxing lyrical about space exploration when it's such a Hard Engineering subject. But I like to think there's room for everyone here: the engineer who takes delight in learning and talking about gear ratios, thresholds and performance limits, etc... the geologist who sees a subtle but serene beauty in the cracks in and planes of a dust-coated rock sitting exposed on the surface... the meteorologist who smiles with understanding when they see cotton wool clouds drifting like Scooby Doo ghosts across the pink martian sky... the dreamer who refuses to accept that something is 'clearly impossible' and pushes the rovers on with the sheer force of their passion... the poet, like me, who can't create scientifically useful driving maps but can, occasionally, string a few words together to illustrate the drama and excitement of this amazing, thrilling time, and help people look beyond the rovers' polished metal to glimpse the very human hearts beating within them...

I know, I know, there I go again. I know they're just robots, lifeless shapes of metal being driven by remote control from far across the solar system, mindless automatons with no feelings, no emotions of their own, and maybe it is silly to write poetry about them, but it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up every time I realise that we - mankind - dared to dream we could build such machines, then designed them, built them and flung them across the solar system to explore an alien world on our behalf, and are now seeing Mars through their eyes. I can't imagine how Paolo, Scott and Sharon feel as they sit down to actually drive Spirit and Oppy across Mars, but I do know that they won't just think of it as driving a robot; they're exploring, in the truest sense of the word, and, magically, we're looking over their shoulders as they go...

We might not reach Endeavour. But we might. We just might. But whatever happens, Oppy won't set off on her long drive alone; we'll all be walking alongside her, in spirit at least, keeping her company, trekking south across the great plain of Meridiani towards a new horizon and a new adventure. We'll all find something different to thrill and excite us along the way, making new pictures, writing new poems and creating new maps along the way. And in a hundred years time, when Oppy rests in the Museum of Exploration on Mars, and is seen every sol by hundreds of fascinated visitors, they'll look back on this time and envy us - us! - for accompanying her on her journey.

[Tesheiner]

I know, I know, there I go again. I know they're just robots, lifeless shapes of metal being driven by remote control from far across the solar system, mindless automatons with no feelings, no emotions of their own, <snip>

True, but they also are the eyes (and minds) of hundreds or thousands of people transported to mars, and this is what makes this journey so great!

[ustrax]

James, still sleeping?
There's work to be done!
(Pando, are you around my friend?)

Seems like we might be seing some new features in the most recent navcam images:

Or not...I'm a bit lost with the change of position...here's the original.
Is it possible that, from this point of view, the rightmost feature may be located in the rim closest to Victoria?

[Tesheiner]

Rui, that image is looking north so not related to Endeavour. Here's a polar projection of the latest navcam shots.

[ustrax]

Rui, that image is looking north so not related to Endeavour. Here's a polar projection of the latest navcam shots.

I knew I shouldn't have drink that extra cup of coffee...
So...What is it?!
Let's go and have a look?

[climber]

Stu,

You're so right. Just look at the posts before and after your's. There is technic, there are pictures, there is poetry. Even technic can be emotional. Perfect exemple in only a few posts.
What I love here is the alternance. What I love is: you never know which one you'll get before opening a post.

[ustrax]

There is technic, there are pictures, there is poetry.

You forgot one...there is also cheerful ignorance!

[Phil Stooke]

Rui's hill is the big drift fringing Duck Bay. Let's not go back and look at it!

Phil

[Tman]

Could/should be the rim of the Duck Bay.

[RoverDriver]

...
On the poetry thing... I sometimes worry about posting mine (or lines from other poems) here, because I am very aware that not everyone "gets it",
...

Stu, speaking only for myself as usual, I'm one of the few who does not get it. Both because English is not my primary language, and also because I do not appreciate poetry in my native language either. I'm pretty sure that if I sit down with you I can quickly explain any of the technical details that now escape you, but you might spend years and fail to explain to me how to put together words so that they make you feel something.

Your poetry is more than welcome but unfortunately not "grocked" by your truly.

Paolo

[ustrax]

Paolo, I know that you are on the engineering side of the fence and that I am not Stu but...

Itaca

Quando ti metterai in viaggio per Itaca
devi augurarti che la strada sia lunga,
fertile in avventure e in esperienze.
I Lestrigoni e i Ciclopi
o la furia di Nettuno non temere,
non sara` questo il genere di incontri
se il pensiero resta alto e un sentimento
fermo guida il tuo spirito e il tuo corpo.
In Ciclopi e Lestrigoni, no certo,
ne' nell'irato Nettuno incapperai
se non li porti dentro
se l'anima non te li mette contro.

Devi augurarti che la strada sia lunga.
Che i mattini d'estate siano tanti
quando nei porti - finalmente e con che gioia -
toccherai terra tu per la prima volta:
negli empori fenici indugia e acquista
madreperle coralli ebano e ambre
tutta merce fina, anche profumi
penetranti d'ogni sorta; piu' profumi inebrianti che puoi,
va in molte città egizie
impara una quantità di cose dai dotti.

Sempre devi avere in mente Itaca -
raggiungerla sia il pensiero costante.
Soprattutto, non affrettare il viaggio;
fa che duri a lungo, per anni, e che da vecchio
metta piede sull'isola, tu, ricco
dei tesori accumulati per strada
senza aspettarti ricchezze da Itaca.
Itaca ti ha dato il bel viaggio,
senza di lei mai ti saresti messo
sulla strada: che cos'altro ti aspetti?

E se la trovi povera, non per questo Itaca ti avrà deluso.
Fatto ormai savio, con tutta la tua esperienza addosso
gia` tu avrai capito cio` che Itaca vuole significare.

Kavafis

I don't believe that, even for you, the journey towards Ithaca/Endeavour will reduce itself to find the path, cross the distance and get there, will it?...

[Guest_Bobby_*]

Hi Ustrax

Where is Pando??? No reply from him Since June
Does anyone know how to contact him?
He's missing out on the new adventure

[climber]

Paolo, I know that you are on the engineering side of the fence and that I am not Stu but...
Itaca
....
Kavafis
I don't believe that, even for you, the journey towards Ithaca/Endeavour will reduce itself to find the path, cross the distance and get there, will it?...

Thanks Rui,
I wish of you all can get the music of this magnificent poem. Every language has its own sounds and give untranslatable feelings.
I'm just in awe at the moment...

[climber]

Hi Ustrax

Where is Pando??? No reply from him Since June
Does anyone know how to contact him?
He's missing out on the new adventure

Hey Bobby, did you missed this : http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...mp;#entry127604 ?

[Guest_Bobby_*]

Thanks Climber

Yes I did miss that post and thanks
I think Ustrax missed it also

Now Go Oppy

[RoverDriver]

Paolo, I know that you are on the engineering side of the fence and that I am not Stu but...
....
I don't believe that, even for you, the journey towards Ithaca/Endeavour will reduce itself to find the path, cross the distance and get there, will it?...

Absolutely not. What I meant to say is that while I can appreciate a good picture, I typically cannot appreciate poetry, I only wish I could.

Paolo

[ustrax]

I can understand Paolo, I really can, but if you can just remember the time when there were no pictures...

How would you describe something as amazing as Mars, something that cannot be imprisioned in a picture, like the will to move onwards, to learn, to discover, to see the unseen and know the unknown, to surpass purgatories and face 12kms distant utopias? That is, in my humble point of view something impossible to achieve without one of Mankind's greatest conquests, to, through words, express the beauty and the core of it all.

We're too spoiled by tech...

[TheChemist]

In view of the publicity Kavafis got in UMSF, it is a bit spooky to realize that another famous poem of his, "Waiting for the barbarians" starts with these very words :

"What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?"

[Greg Hullender]

On the poetry thing... I sometimes worry about posting mine (or lines from other poems) here, because I am very aware that not everyone "gets it", and some people probably think this isn't actually the place for waxing lyrical about space exploration when it's such a Hard Engineering subject.

I think I can find at least one example of a deeply moving poem that's at least close to the subject:

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
of sun-split clouds, — and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of—wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air....

Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark nor even eagle flew—
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

--John Magee, "High Flight"

I don't know about anyone else, but "High Flight" always chokes me up, and I cannot read it aloud.

That said, I have to say none of the rover poems works for me. The style seems fine, the words seem to be well-chosen, the rhyme and meter are pleasing -- but something leaves me cold. I'd like to say something helpful about that, since I feel Spirit and Opportunity ought to be at least as inspiring as a Spitfire, so I'll say I think the reason the poems leave me unmoved is that they really are just about the two machines. I guess I'm not satisfied with them just being machines -- I want them to be symbols of something much greater. If a rover "feels" something, I don't want it to be an actual physical malfunction -- I want it to be something felt by all of us who want to reach for the stars. I wish I could be more precise.

Yes, I know it's unreasonable to expect something as good as "High Flight." :-) Yet sometimes it doesn't seem like you're that far away from it. Don't mean to offend -- just wanted to offer some feedback that might actually be useful.

--Greg

[ustrax]

I think I can find at least one example of a deeply moving poem that's at least close to the subject:

That is a fantastic poem, thank you, personally, for introducing me to it and, although I do not entirely concur with you about Stu's poems, there have been, at least, two poems through which this mission has been fueled by, well, I personally didn't know these so, at least for me, they work as my two favourite works so far...El Dorado by Poe and Ithaca by Kavafis, and these you can't disassociate from the sols we've been through...
Engineering, science, astronomy...man...that without the "pilgrim shadow", that without " what Ithaca means", that without, "Ectasy of Gold" (my own MER soundtrack...) wouldn't mean a thing...

And even if the words don't work out for you I am sure, beyond UMSF there's someone dreaming about an Atkinson's Mars...

TheChemist...don't tell me you have reached that poem only know?!...

[ustrax]

Just received an e-mail...looks like Jim Bell jgot into the party...

"It is going to be an adventure--if we can make it! Once we finish at the alcoves and promontories of Victoria, we will be starting to routinely take Pancam images in that direction--for a LONG time..."

That sounds like a lot of headaches coming from me to you James, doesn't it?...

And...of course...don't forget this from Jim...

[TheChemist]

TheChemist...don't tell me you have reached that poem only know?!...

Well, the english translation of it, yes. I just had a flash realizing agora --> forum --> UMSF,
and it felt weird

[djellison]

I don't know about anyone else, but "High Flight" always chokes me up, and I cannot read it aloud.

Channel 4 here in the UK had a WW2 veteran read it at the end of an episode of the archeology program 'Time Team' where they found and recovered a Spitfire. I was in floods of tears.

[Greg Hullender]

. . . there have been, at least, two poems through which this mission has been fueled by, well, I personally didn't know these so, at least for me, they work as my two favourite works so far...El Dorado by Poe and Ithaca by Kavafis, and these you can't disassociate from the sols we've been through...

In that vein, thinking about Opportinity's trek to Endeavour, have a look at Ulysses by Tennyson:

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/tennys...lyssestext.html

This bit of it is particularly apropos:

Death closes all: but something ere the end,
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.

Or maybe it just seems so to someone embarking on a mid-life career change. ;-)

--Greg

[Shaka]

Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

[ustrax]

"...Come, my friends,
'Tis not too late to seek a newer world."

God...I'm in tears...

[CosmicRocker]

/me wipes a tear from his eye and provides hugs for everyone within reach.

Now, can we get back to science, engineering, exploration, and planetary adventure here? (I'm not totally insensitive to the emotional side of planetary exploration...I actually enjoyed the challenge of reading and trying to interpret all the poetry. Personally, I've been looking for an opportunity to insert some operatic mp3 files into the discussion, but I'd have to guess that Doug might frown on that. )

... And...of course...don't forget this from Jim...

OMG! I've been waiting for that! Do you know when his book will actually be printed? I can't wait to get a copy of it. Currently it can only be pre-ordered.

After Ken asked people to submit 3D images for possible inclusion in the book I began collaborating with another member on a large color anaglyph. I guess it didn't make the final cut, or we would have heard by now. That's somewhat of a bummer, but I'll get over it.

I think there is a problem with the book cover. We may need to get word back to Jim Bell and his publisher regarding the 3D anaglyph affect in the title. The "3-D" portion of the title is printed as an anaglyph, but it appears they got the red and blue parts reversed. Most red/blue anaglyph glasses put the red filter over the left eye, and blue over the right eye. To properly see the 3-D effect on the book cover, one would need to wear their glasses backwardly.

[Shaka]

Personally, I've been looking for an opportunity to insert some operatic mp3 files into the discussion,

Una furtiva lagrima ?
Dies Bildnis ist bezaubernd schön ?
E lucevan le stelle ?
Che gelida manina ?

[CosmicRocker]

We probably should not go there. I am crying again... Hehe.

[ustrax]

OMG! I've been waiting for that! Do you know when his book will actually be printed? I can't wait to get a copy of it. Currently it can only be pre-ordered.

I remember Jim Bell telling at spacEurope that the book would come out in November, and that is the date also at the Sterling site, but at Barnes&Nobles a more specific date is indicated: December 02.

I've forwarded your words about the anaglyph and the cover to Jim.

EDITED: Here is Jim's notes, it will come out in November indeed:

It's printed, now expected to be available in stores over here Nov. 4.

About the cover:

The cover is not an anaglyph--it just uses shiny print to make it "seem" like 3-D. The rover photo on the cover isn't an anaglyph either, just a regular photo that "looks" deep because of the view. The publisher ultimately decided that the anaglyphs would only go inside the book, so that they can be used with the 3-D glasses included in the flap of the book.

For all those anxious with the Long Trek, we're almost there...:

I have to get back to my Opportunity weekend work... I expect that we'll spend a week or two more near the rim and then head out on the long LONG trip south...

[BrianL]

I think there is a problem with the book cover. We may need to get word back to Jim Bell and his publisher regarding the 3D anaglyph affect in the title. The "3-D" portion of the title is printed as an anaglyph, but it appears they got the red and blue parts reversed. Most red/blue anaglyph glasses put the red filter over the left eye, and blue over the right eye. To properly see the 3-D effect on the book cover, one would need to wear their glasses backwardly.

Marketing opportunity, Tom (no pun intended). In addition to buying the book, you will also have to buy the special proprietary Mars 3-D glasses.